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Given that europeans consist of up to 5% or more Neanderthal genetic stock, it's increasingly untenable to look at the Neanderthal as some sort of "other". The

Given that europeans consist of up to 5% or more Neanderthal genetic stock, it's increasingly untenable to look at the Neanderthal as some sort of "other". They is us.

kolev 12y ago
I'm European and I have about 2.4% (I know this thanks to 23andMe).
pcrh 12y ago
5% isn't all that small either, it's 1/20. On a population basis it would be the equivalent of 1/20 people being pure Neanderthal.
- mcv 12y ago
  No, that's really not the same thing. The Neanderthal genes have been quite dilluted over the millennia. Everybody has a tiny bit, and nobody has a lot.
  - pcrh 12y ago
    It depends on what you are considering. If 1/20 people of a population were 100% Neanderthal, and the rest 0% Neanderthal, over millenia, and assuming random mixing, the whole population would tend towards what it is today. So we are potentially heirs of a population where Neanderthals mixed with non-Neanderthals in a (very) broadly similar ratio as Europeans versus non-Europeans in the US today. I only intend this to illustrate that 5% is not as trivial a number as people often imply, and that it potentially derives from a population of Neanderthals and non-Neanderthals mixing in quite a "modern" fashion. I would add to this that one interesting fact concerning human-neanderthal genetics is the absence of Neanderthal mitochondria in modern humans. This may mean that Neanderthal women couldn't bear human-Neanderthal offspring, and if they could have, the proportion of Neanderthal DNA in modern humans might have been twice as high as it currently is.
duaneb 12y ago
Well then why bother discussing pre-homo sapien speciation at all? EDIT: To put it another way, you wouldn't compare a modern european to a neanderthal and call them part of the same people. The neanderthals still had large differences with other populations.
- carsongross 12y ago
  I'm not saying it isn't worth discussing pre-homo sapien speciation at all, I'm saying that the vague idea that the Neanderthals are some "other thing" from our genetic heritage (as compared with, say, Cro-Magnon) has become less tenable as genetic analysis has advanced. The story of Neanderthal is, for many of us, partly the story of us. Genetically, some of us have the equivalent of a great-great grandparent that was Neanderthal.

Given that europeans consist of up to 5% or more Neanderthal genetic stock, it's increasingly untenable to look at the Neanderthal as some sort of "other". They is us.

kolev 12y ago

I'm European and I have about 2.4% (I know this thanks to 23andMe).

pcrh 12y ago

5% isn't all that small either, it's 1/20. On a population basis it would be the equivalent of 1/20 people being pure Neanderthal.

mcv 12y ago
No, that's really not the same thing. The Neanderthal genes have been quite dilluted over the millennia. Everybody has a tiny bit, and nobody has a lot.
- pcrh 12y ago
  It depends on what you are considering. If 1/20 people of a population were 100% Neanderthal, and the rest 0% Neanderthal, over millenia, and assuming random mixing, the whole population would tend towards what it is today. So we are potentially heirs of a population where Neanderthals mixed with non-Neanderthals in a (very) broadly similar ratio as Europeans versus non-Europeans in the US today. I only intend this to illustrate that 5% is not as trivial a number as people often imply, and that it potentially derives from a population of Neanderthals and non-Neanderthals mixing in quite a "modern" fashion. I would add to this that one interesting fact concerning human-neanderthal genetics is the absence of Neanderthal mitochondria in modern humans. This may mean that Neanderthal women couldn't bear human-Neanderthal offspring, and if they could have, the proportion of Neanderthal DNA in modern humans might have been twice as high as it currently is.

duaneb 12y ago

Well then why bother discussing pre-homo sapien speciation at all? EDIT: To put it another way, you wouldn't compare a modern european to a neanderthal and call them part of the same people. The neanderthals still had large differences with other populations.

carsongross 12y ago
I'm not saying it isn't worth discussing pre-homo sapien speciation at all, I'm saying that the vague idea that the Neanderthals are some "other thing" from our genetic heritage (as compared with, say, Cro-Magnon) has become less tenable as genetic analysis has advanced. The story of Neanderthal is, for many of us, partly the story of us. Genetically, some of us have the equivalent of a great-great grandparent that was Neanderthal.