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Hey Kalium! You definitely bring a passion to this, so I definitely want to understand you. Perhaps you can explain your opposition a little more specifically?

• Kalium 12y ago
  The article goes on and on about six figures, including strategically placed bold type. You're trying to sell hope for a bright future. That's not a bad thing by itself. Just admit that you're selling a dream. You prefer to call it a "mission" and an "opportunity". Fine. Branding. Whatever. Tomato, tomahtoe. The problem is that bootcamps don't produce that with any degree of reliability. No three-month bootcamp is going to turn you into the equivalent of someone holding a bachelor's in computer science. Yet that's exactly the concept that this article is based around - you too can be a six figure IT consultant! It's not remotely common for someone whose entire technical skillset consists of a bit of a web framework, a bit of JS, and a bit of CSS to make six figures. Or to have a reasonable career path ahead of them without a staggering amount of self-teaching. Which while ideal, is very rare in practice.
  • RosieA 12y ago
    I see what you mean. There is a tough balance to be struck, so what then would you call realistic? If you're trying to explain to someone the potential of becoming a developer, and committing yourself to that learning and industry how would you position it? And to be clear I don't mean it in a marketing sense so much as I mean how would you actually reword what you just called "not remotely common". I think its a totally relevant point, and while Lauren positions the ideal outcome, isn't that what we're all striving for...? I think you're absolutely right that many, maybe most, perhaps even pretty-much-all bootcamps don't effectively teach students to problem solve, to self perpetuate learning. They don't even talk thoroughly about the commitment to their courses, much less the commitment to becoming a developer. We're in a position where for instance, we sell the "dream" as you like to call, to bring as much initial interest as possible. But the commitment is definitely more than just an ideal, not something that converts a signup. To be fair though, in our experience over 90% of our students do a call with us before actual enrollment in a course. That is to say a "purchase", and if there is anything we're clear about in that call its what they're really getting into. We don't have a sales team for that, Martin and I do the calls because we designed the courses and did the career leg work. Why? Well because most students who don't have the stamina and understanding to become a developer over time drop out of our course within the fist 3 weeks, which is terrible. Not only does that just suck, but we're an education company, drop outs are simply the worst thing in our lives. Now, could you assume I'm just trying to sell you with what I want you to hear, of course, but I want to be clear I totally agree with you. Actually we're just still trying to find our answer to it. Lauren wrote an article from the perspective of capturing interest, and I think as a piece of content she did that beautifully and, even more to the point it triggered discussions like this one which we can learn from. Interested in your continued thoughts, but thanks again for responding.
    • Kalium 12y ago
      A bootcamp graduate stands a decent shot at an entry-level web-dev job. That's 60k-90k, depending on location. But that's just the beginning - to have a solid career trajectory from there is going to require self-directed learning of much of the material typically learned in a 4-year CS program. I think honesty is the best policy. Real completion rates, placement rates, and a distribution of starting salaries goes a long way. As does where-are-they-now data, but I know that that is hard to collect reliably.