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This is one of the biggest problems with the industry now; a lot of people learning to code without learning computer science. Coding is applying computer scien

by UUMMUU 12y ago

This is one of the biggest problems with the industry now; a lot of people learning to code without learning computer science. Coding is applying computer science fundamentals and without those fundamentals, you end up writing terrible and unmanageable code. Bootcamps are one of the worst ideas because they charge a lot of money, waste a lot of time with overzealous promises and, worst of all, hurt the industry by cranking out sub-par developers. Don't push people to learn to code, push people to learn computer science, math and algorithms.

arenaninja 12y ago
Partly because I'm self-taught, I don't know how much of your statement I agree with. I agree that the bootcamps thing is out of control, but I don't think that I agree that it's bad to code without learning computer science. It might make you more effective, but I've known people with CS degrees who were terrible at coding. Also, in college, I could design better relational databases than CS students in their last year of college (well, my roommate at least, who went on to work at Microsoft). But I don't know the difference between a binary tree and a b-tree, because it's never been necessary for me to implement one. Even then, I'm curious about CS and read up on it when I have free time, and I've been working on nand2tetris, but that's mostly because I'm curious, and while I think it's interesting I don't think it's made me a better programmer (yet). I've also had interviews for web dev that included algorithm/data structure (most don't!), one such place even wanted to hire me, but I didn't want to work there because given the nature of the job I find it unlikely that I would be writing most of the things they asked me about
- socialmatchbox 12y ago
  A lot of big companies like MS hire boy scouts (or girl scouts) who feel that they need a certification to carry around a pocket knife at camp for their entry level jobs. They also hire really smart people too, but they tend to hire the B's, not the A's. Sometimes it isn't clear whether they can tell or not. They like people who can be molded ushered in a direction over time. What you are describing isn't isolated is all I am saying. For better or worse, these are hires that they can shape into sequoias in their forrest of talent.
angersock 12y ago
CS grads write shitty code too--and often, it's harder to figure out what they're trying to accomplish, because they use some weird non-standard red/black balanced bloom filter with LZ sliding window compression instead of just, say, a fucking hashmap. At least with coders you often find code that is obviously wrong, instead of code that is non-obviously wrong.
- RosieA 12y ago
  I honestly never thought of it this way (your last sentence). But yes, to your first point many of our students are CS grads who realized they wanted to work as developers but didn't know how to code... They might start with a stronger theoretical understanding, and perhaps can code more complex functionality or software than our non CS grad students, but ultimately they're on a similar level. Just depends on what the individual wants to be doing long term.
jlees 12y ago
Some bootcamps do teach computer science principles. Many do not.
- RosieA 12y ago
  Do you know off hand which ones really do? I'm not sure I've seen evidence of it apart from sort of a brief introduction to theory...?
RosieA 12y ago
I couldn't disagree more! I know great, long time and successful web developers who have never studied maths and CS! I think this really depends on your goals, and the complexity of what you hope to be building. If you want to be at the top of the software development field you may be correct, but if you want to be a really strong web developer working at startups, building your own light weight apps and products, or freelancing as a digital nomad and building portfolios and private e-commerce stores? You don't need any of that. I think there are a lot of self taught and bootcamp taught developers who would disagree with you, and while you could argue they are all "sub par", you and I both know it takes a lot of people trying to find a few people who are genuinely talented. That goes for any skill! That's what makes YOU stand apart! But that doesn't make them or their own pursuits any less valid.
- king_magic 12y ago
  I know great, long time and successful bridge engineers who have never studied math and physics. I think this really depends on your goals, and the complexity of what you hope to be building. If you want to be at the top of the civil engineering field you may be correct, but if you want to be a really strong bridge developer working at construction startups, building your own light weight bridges and other buildings, or freelancing as an engineering nomad and building small private bridges? You don't need any of that. See how ridiculous that sounds when you take another complex field and substitute it in? It should sound just as ridiculous for software development.
  - UUMMUU 12y ago
    Well said King. "Well, I freelanced as a cardiologist on some local homeless people and I watch a TON... A TON of House, so I feel I'm ready to break into being a surgeon"
    - RosieA 12y ago
      You just described a dream I had 2 weeks ago... I need to stop watching House. :-p
  - 12y ago
socialmatchbox 12y ago
Coding and Computer Science can be mutually exclusive. There is no requirement or reason why you should be required to take computer science to be a programmer. There are plenty of coding jobs out there that do not require (in principle or practice) a CS degree. On top of that, having a CS degree is no guarantee of someone being even a decent coder. There are tons of crappy CS grads who are bested by people with no degree, associates degrees, and random liberal arts degrees (e.g. philosophy, english). You are right about the cost of boot camps. However, the exact same argument could be made against traditional 4 year college programs and masters degrees. Ultimately, what you learn in the class is quickly eclipsed by what you learn on the job and in through continuous self study and pursuit of knowledge.

by UUMMUU 12y ago

arenaninja 12y ago

Partly because I'm self-taught, I don't know how much of your statement I agree with. I agree that the bootcamps thing is out of control, but I don't think that I agree that it's bad to code without learning computer science. It might make you more effective, but I've known people with CS degrees who were terrible at coding. Also, in college, I could design better relational databases than CS students in their last year of college (well, my roommate at least, who went on to work at Microsoft). But I don't know the difference between a binary tree and a b-tree, because it's never been necessary for me to implement one. Even then, I'm curious about CS and read up on it when I have free time, and I've been working on nand2tetris, but that's mostly because I'm curious, and while I think it's interesting I don't think it's made me a better programmer (yet). I've also had interviews for web dev that included algorithm/data structure (most don't!), one such place even wanted to hire me, but I didn't want to work there because given the nature of the job I find it unlikely that I would be writing most of the things they asked me about

socialmatchbox 12y ago
A lot of big companies like MS hire boy scouts (or girl scouts) who feel that they need a certification to carry around a pocket knife at camp for their entry level jobs. They also hire really smart people too, but they tend to hire the B's, not the A's. Sometimes it isn't clear whether they can tell or not. They like people who can be molded ushered in a direction over time. What you are describing isn't isolated is all I am saying. For better or worse, these are hires that they can shape into sequoias in their forrest of talent.

angersock 12y ago

CS grads write shitty code too--and often, it's harder to figure out what they're trying to accomplish, because they use some weird non-standard red/black balanced bloom filter with LZ sliding window compression instead of just, say, a fucking hashmap. At least with coders you often find code that is obviously wrong, instead of code that is non-obviously wrong.

RosieA 12y ago
I honestly never thought of it this way (your last sentence). But yes, to your first point many of our students are CS grads who realized they wanted to work as developers but didn't know how to code... They might start with a stronger theoretical understanding, and perhaps can code more complex functionality or software than our non CS grad students, but ultimately they're on a similar level. Just depends on what the individual wants to be doing long term.

jlees 12y ago

Some bootcamps do teach computer science principles. Many do not.

RosieA 12y ago
Do you know off hand which ones really do? I'm not sure I've seen evidence of it apart from sort of a brief introduction to theory...?

RosieA 12y ago

I couldn't disagree more! I know great, long time and successful web developers who have never studied maths and CS! I think this really depends on your goals, and the complexity of what you hope to be building. If you want to be at the top of the software development field you may be correct, but if you want to be a really strong web developer working at startups, building your own light weight apps and products, or freelancing as a digital nomad and building portfolios and private e-commerce stores? You don't need any of that. I think there are a lot of self taught and bootcamp taught developers who would disagree with you, and while you could argue they are all "sub par", you and I both know it takes a lot of people trying to find a few people who are genuinely talented. That goes for any skill! That's what makes YOU stand apart! But that doesn't make them or their own pursuits any less valid.

king_magic 12y ago
I know great, long time and successful bridge engineers who have never studied math and physics. I think this really depends on your goals, and the complexity of what you hope to be building. If you want to be at the top of the civil engineering field you may be correct, but if you want to be a really strong bridge developer working at construction startups, building your own light weight bridges and other buildings, or freelancing as an engineering nomad and building small private bridges? You don't need any of that. See how ridiculous that sounds when you take another complex field and substitute it in? It should sound just as ridiculous for software development.
- UUMMUU 12y ago
  Well said King. "Well, I freelanced as a cardiologist on some local homeless people and I watch a TON... A TON of House, so I feel I'm ready to break into being a surgeon"
  - RosieA 12y ago
    You just described a dream I had 2 weeks ago... I need to stop watching House. :-p
- 12y ago

socialmatchbox 12y ago

Coding and Computer Science can be mutually exclusive. There is no requirement or reason why you should be required to take computer science to be a programmer. There are plenty of coding jobs out there that do not require (in principle or practice) a CS degree. On top of that, having a CS degree is no guarantee of someone being even a decent coder. There are tons of crappy CS grads who are bested by people with no degree, associates degrees, and random liberal arts degrees (e.g. philosophy, english). You are right about the cost of boot camps. However, the exact same argument could be made against traditional 4 year college programs and masters degrees. Ultimately, what you learn in the class is quickly eclipsed by what you learn on the job and in through continuous self study and pursuit of knowledge.