8 ms·

How Microsoft Appointed Itself Sheriff of the Internet

193 points by ghosh 12y ago

_nullandnull_ 12y ago
It wasn't mentioned in the article but there was also a lot of controversy on how Microsoft handled the Operation B71. http://blog.fox-it.com/2012/04/12/critical-analysis-of-microsoft-operation-b71/ http://blog.fox-it.com/2012/04/12/critical-analysis-of-micro...
ath0 12y ago
Good article and timely, because they just did another big response two days ago: http://blogs.technet.com/b/mmpc/archive/2014/10/14/msrt-october-2014-hikiti.aspx http://blogs.technet.com/b/mmpc/archive/2014/10/14/msrt-octo... While this didn't involve a broad takedown of a public provider (as far as I'm aware), it did involve coordinated release of tools and more-targeted takedown requests through their semi-private "Coordinated Malware Eradication" program. On balance, I think what Microsoft is doing is a good thing, but public scrutiny and discussion of any organization/cartel that operates in secret is equally important.
coldcode 12y ago
I'm sorry that people are hacking Microsoft's OSs, but this is "legal" piracy. The US courts should not and cannot condone one-sided private legal decisions. Sure the Federal government can vaguely justify doing this themselves but allowing a private corporation this right is beyond even a random reading of the constituion.
- hollerith 12y ago
  Well, Microsoft only acted after they got a court order. So, it seems to me that your "real" objection, if I may presume to say, is that the Courts are giving Microsoft a lot of say as to which entities on the internet are bad actors. But do you really want FBI agents or other federal executive-branch employees to have that say instead? Isn't it better for decisions like that to be made by organizations with greater technical competency than the executive branch of the US government? Of course, if Microsoft starts using these court orders to hobble their competitors, then that is bad, but no one is asserting that they have started doing that; are they? Also, if other computer companies, e.g., Google and Apple, started doing what Microsoft is, the Courts would give their expertise approximately the same amount of deference that they currently give Microsoft -- or more precisely, I have seen no signs that that is not the case. An analogy: would you not prefer for the laws and executive-branch policies related to software patents to be decided by computer companies and software professionals rather than elected officials, their legislative aids and lobbyists? (According to Eben Moglen, current US laws and policy around software patents are largely influenced by lobbyists for the pharmaceutical companies who feel the need to oppose any weakening of patent "rights" in any industry.) More precisely: if individuals and organizations without deep technical knowledge were prohibited from influencing policy on software patents, would not that be an improvement over the current situation?
  - xorcist 12y ago
    > But do you really want FBI agents or other federal executive-branch employees to have that say instead? Dear god yes. Law enforcement may need these enforcements from time to time, but you can not let a private company slap around their competitors at will using the same methods.
    - hollerith 12y ago
      What competitor did Microsoft slap around? Do you consider No-IP a competitor to Microsoft?
      - pmontra 12y ago
        With Azure they are more or less in the same business.
        morganvachon 12y ago
        Really? That's like saying a guy on the corner selling tourist maps is more or less in the same business as Delta Air Lines, because Delta has a brochure stand in the airport lobby. No-IP offers domain/DDNS service, Microsoft Azure is a full stack cloud service similar to Amazon's AWS, and is a small part of a much larger company. There is no competition there.
        xorcist 12y ago
        No-IP sells managed DNS, which you can get with Azure as well, so in that particular service they are direct competitors. But with an as large company as Microsoft there will be overlap with pretty much every other company on the planet, so that's not necessarily relevant. I was speaking in a more general sense. If Microsoft could do this, other companies can. If they could do it against No-IP, they can the same thing to others.
        FleshGordon 12y ago
        Oh come off it
- anonbanker 12y ago
  You should probably read these legal docs again. Thew US courts did not approve this, as it was an international court.
  - nknighthb 12y ago
    What are you talking about? It was a lawsuit filed in US District Court for the District of Nevada under state and federal laws. There is no international court with jurisdiction over such a suit. http://www.noticeoflawsuit.com/docs/Second%20Amended%20Order%20Granting%20Ex%20Parte%20Application%20for%20a%20TRO.pdf http://www.noticeoflawsuit.com/docs/Second%20Amended%20Order...
    - anonbanker 12y ago
      So you're stating that the two Pro Hac Vice applications were just pointless pieces of paper? It was filed in accordance with state and federal law, but you'll pay attention to the fact that the notice was served in three countries, as well as via the website. You should also notice that they had the individual registrars (in other countries) execute their process. Why would those non-state parties even agree to act on the process if there was no obligation for them to do so?
      - nknighthb 12y ago
        None of that indicates an international court. Attorneys in the US are licensed to practice per-state. Pro Hac Vice petitions are necessary whenever they seek to appear in a case outside the state(s) they are licensed in. In this case, two California attorneys were appearing in court in Nevada. There is nothing "international" about that. Parties to a lawsuit, no matter where they are, have an obligation to respond under US law. If they never want to travel to or do business in the US or any other country whose courts will enforce US judgements (there are many that will), they are, of course, free to ignore the summons and/or orders (unless ICAAN says otherwise, in case of the registries). Note also that the orders are signed by Gloria M. Navarro, Chief Judge, United States District Court for the District of Nevada. This is a US court. I have no idea why you think otherwise. There is nothing to indicate otherwise.
rlpb 12y ago
"Microsoft had a plan in place to keep legitimate customers online, while stopping the malware, but it didn’t work." Presumably Microsoft were able to convince a judge that their plan was acceptable on the basis that they had a plan and it would work. IMHO, that should be enough in itself to hold Microsoft culpable for all damages as a consequence of their plan failing. Nothing against Microsoft in particular here; anyone can screw up. It should just be a general rule that applies equally to everyone in this sort of case. Doing this "ex parte temporary restraining order" without any opportunity for the targeted party to respond presents enough of a risk to the target that it should only be permitted if the party requesting it is prepared to take the financial hit should they screw up. Perhaps the funds should even be required to be held in escrow. Enough to cover the target's financial collapse.
- drivingmenuts 12y ago
  >Nothing against Microsoft in particular here; anyone can screw up. Well, except for the bit where they appointed themselves Sheriff without any legal authority. Sure, what they did may have been legal, but anointing themselves doesn't sound legal to me. It's the moral equivalent of someone appointing themself the President because he or she has the biggest and most guns.
  - rlpb 12y ago
    > Well, except for the bit where they appointed themselves Sheriff without any legal authority. AFAICT, this is factually incorrect. They acquired a court order, did they not? They didn't appoint themselves as anything. They asked a court, and a court agreed. This is how the legal system should work. If you have a problem with it, then you can petition for laws that bind a court to do something else instead. This is what I am saying: a court should be bound by law to ensure the target is adequately protected financially in this sort of case.
    - UnoriginalGuy 12y ago
      > This is how the legal system should work. Nonsense. The legal system is a two party system where both sides get to make an argument and an independent arbitrator makes a judgement. The way Microsoft are using the law, effectively the other party never gets to argue and the first they hear about the lawsuit is when Microsoft has already won. That isn't how the legal system is meant to work. The Lanham Act is broken.
peterwwillis 12y ago
"The irony is that No-IP had worked with Microsoft in the past. The company had collaborated with Microsoft’s anti-piracy group, and it also worked on the takedown of the Mariposa botnet, which was dismantled in 2010. Especially give their prior relationship, No-IP’s Zigenis wishes Microsoft had reached out for help with the takedown instead of going to the courts. “All this action, all the work that Microsoft did,” he says. “Whatever they spent on their lawsuit could have been saved by a phone call.” "His point is that, with the No-IP takedown, Microsoft didn’t work with others. It didn’t even work with No-IP. It served the company papers without asking the No-IP to shutdown bad actors or even telling the company what it planned to do." Fuck. Microsoft.
- TheRealDunkirk 12y ago
  Yeah, there's really no excuse for not talking to the people at the company first. The only reason I can fathom would be that if Microsoft suspected the owner of No-IP to be actually involved with the botnet operators. (Especially given that they had a previous relationship, this is inexcusable, but it shouldn't have mattered anyway.) If Microsoft had contacted them first, and No-IP had given them some reason to suspect that they were culpable, then, by all means, work through the legal system. The whole notion of sealed legal precedings, as with the FISA court, gives me the willies. It's almost like the exact opposite of what the Bill of Rights was supposed to ensure for protections of the populace against their government. How much more offensive is it that this type of action was used against a individual running a commercial company, not involved in any way with "national defense" issues?
  - anonbanker 12y ago
    This was an international case. The Bill of Rights of the United States of America does not apply. To impose the BoR on a non party would be a violation of their human rights, guaranteed by the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.
    - TheCoelacanth 12y ago
      The court was in Las Vegas, and Microsoft, No-IP and the company that was ordered to redirect the domains are all based in the US. In what sense is this an international case?
spanker 12y ago
TD;DR? http://www.noip.com/blog/2014/07/10/microsoft-takedown-details-updates/ http://www.noip.com/blog/2014/07/10/microsoft-takedown-detai... The "new Microsoft" is worse than the old one.
- morganvachon 12y ago
  There's nothing really "new" about this though. Microsoft has been doing this for a while; it didn't start with Nadella taking the reins. My take: Microsoft dropped the ball while genuinely trying to do a good thing. First, they should have communicated with No-IP as they have in the past instead of seeking a secret court order; they have worked together in the past and there was no reason they couldn't this time as well. Failing that, the court should have required Microsoft to reimburse No-IP for any lost revenue due to the action, given that No-IP was not allowed to even know about the order, much less present their side or make an attempt to work with Microsoft. I honestly don't think Microsoft set out to destroy No-IP's business, there simply isn't a logical reason for that. They aren't a direct competitor (Microsoft is not in the dynamic DNS business to my knowledge), and if they were, using the court like this to destroy a competitor would end badly for Microsoft. No, I think they just plain goofed. It definitely sucks that they aren't more willing to help No-IP get back on their feet.
  - xorcist 12y ago
    > instead of seeking a secret court order The blame here must reside with the justice system. There will always be companies attacking their competitors by legal means, it must be the responsibility of the system to not let them get away with it.
    - morganvachon 12y ago
      Indeed, the situation reeks of a rubber-stamp mentality among the court staff involved with this case. Having worked in law enforcement in the past, I've seen first hand how some judges can just blindly approve whatever warrant or order comes across their desk without so much as a cursory glance at the details, consequences be damned.
throwawaykf05 12y ago
>"Whatever they spent on their lawsuit could have been saved by a phone call." Wasn't Microsoft's precise concern that such a call could have been tantamount to giving botnet operators advance notice? I seem to recall when this was discussed previously that some HN commenters had similar experiences with traffic from No-Ip domains and considered them to be in cahoots with the botnet operators.
- pmorici 12y ago
  Perhaps but beyond vague allusions there haven't been any facts provided that I can see that show that is the case.
- xorcist 12y ago
  But those allegations just doesn't make sense. Does anyone seriously believe botnet operators to be paying customers of No-IP? Why else would they give them advance notice? Out of spite? No-IP has absolutely nothing to gain from it and everything to lose. It just doesn't make sense. Has there ever been any real indication that this was the case?
  - marvy 12y ago
    They would not do it on purpose. The fear was about accidentally somehow letting it slip. No idea how.
- lawnchair_larry 12y ago
  You've shown the unfortunate side effect of Microsoft's libel. Now, many people think no-ip is a shady organization. It isn't the least bit true, and there was no link between no-ip and the people abusing their service.
templeos2 12y ago
Microsoft has shamelessly spread fear to drive people to safe companies. Now, Microsft is going to Hell. God is perfectly just. You can trust that the people are going to hell too.
lostcolony 12y ago
"Boscovich remembered a case he’d seen argued back in his Florida days. A maker of designer handbags had been granted the right to seize the bags from the counterfeiters. Because its brand was being harmed by the infringement, the court gave it the ok to seize the bags. A year after Waledac, Boscovich used this argument to seize the Rustock servers." This is fascinating. This is an actual, tangible case where intellectual property law had more teeth, and more negative side effects, than the existing cyberlaws. It's evidence both that trying to take law that applies to physical goods and apply it digitally is not trivial (if even possible to do fairly), as well as how much cyberlaw has lagged behind the evolution of technology, in a context completely separate from the usual ones (DRM, copying = piracy?, etc).
at-fates-hands 12y ago
It was an unfriendly conversation. Microsoft was willing to hand over No-IP’s domains, but only if the company met certain terms. Microsoft’s specific demands are protected by a confidentiality agreement, so we can’t say exactly what they were, but Durrer says that, if he had complied, they would have put No-IP out of business. This should make anyone scared to death. The fact a company with little or no oversight can simply lock down a companies servers and then hold them for ransom is quite freighting. Add in the fact No-IP had no say in the issue and this was all done in secret is rather unnerving.
paddyoloughlin 12y ago
Wired: Stop making cursor keys initiate navigation! This drives me nuts!
- josu 12y ago
  What do you mean?
  - paddyoloughlin 12y ago
    When reading a Wired article, holding down shift and pressing left or right cursor loads another article. Often, when reading articles, I highlight the part I am currently reading and then track where I'm reading by extending the highlight with shift and right or down cursor. This has been fine for me for over 15 years, until reading a few Wired articles over the past while and coming across this new feature of theirs.
orf 12y ago
I'm glad Microsoft is doing what law enforcement seems incapable of doing. Microsoft also has a huge vested interest in cleaning up Windows related malware, and huge cash reserves. I expect they spend more than most countries do on combatting cybercrime.
- serf 12y ago
  >I'm glad Microsoft is doing what law enforcement seems incapable of doing. Yeah! why make our seized domains go to waste redirecting to a landing page like the FBI when we could make them work for us while ruining some company's user experience like Microsoft did!! Yeah! law enforcement & microsoft are equally capable of feeding judges bullshit in order to put their hands where they don't belong and destroy fragile systems.
  - iso27002 12y ago
    Why not aim your anger towards No-IP, given the following? "Our research revealed that out of all Dynamic DNS providers, No-IP domains are used 93 percent of the time for Bladabindi-Jenxcus infections, which are the most prevalent among the 245 different types of malware currently exploiting No-IP domains. Microsoft has seen more than 7.4 million Bladabindi-Jenxcus detections over the past 12 months, which doesn’t account for detections by other anti-virus providers. Despite numerous reports by the security community on No-IP domain abuse, the company has not taken sufficient steps to correct, remedy, prevent or control the abuse or help keep its domains safe from malicious activity." http://blogs.microsoft.com/blog/2014/06/30/microsoft-takes-on-global-cybercrime-epidemic-in-tenth-malware-disruption/ http://blogs.microsoft.com/blog/2014/06/30/microsoft-takes-o...
    - kbart 12y ago
      Why stop here? Maybe just let Microsoft police whole Internet, after all, 100% of malware operates on it. MS should clean their house first and start taking OS security seriously instead of putting blame on legitimate business.
geobz123 12y ago
Interesting read, I hate when I see that like the post says about this Attorney... he has no idea about computers yet he is trying to fight something in computers. I get that in real life all the time people that have no knowledge of computing and the internet want to change it... cause they are trying to show other people that they do.
SG- 12y ago
What I don't understand is how a botnet could negatively affect Microsoft other than showing the world through news articles how it infected vulnerable Microsoft software? Is the bad press basically the reason and justification?
- bayesianhorse 12y ago
  The conficker worm did cause significant harm for Microsoft's customers and Microsoft's direct or indirect costs associated in fighting the worm will have been considerable.
- oconnor663 12y ago
  Botnets are responsible for lots of (most?) spam and DDOSs. Those hurt everyone on the internet, not just Windows users.
  - SG- 12y ago
    I understand that, and they should be taken down. But Microsoft is using justification that it's hurting their business in order to take over other businesses and shut them down.
gregd 12y ago
I can't help but feel that with a judiciary that seems to be largely "out of touch" with technology, that when Microsoft walks into the courtroom and says something is bad...that the enamored judge thinks to herself, "well then it must be bad".
wyager 12y ago
This is a prime example of why critical internet systems (namely domain name resolution) need to be completely and absolutely out of reach of government officials (some of whom are guaranteed to be corrupt) and private corporations (some of which are guaranteed to have interests contrary to the public).
- harryjo 12y ago
  And controlled by... who?
  - wyager 12y ago
    No one. See namecoin.
tzakrajs 12y ago
This is ethically reprehensible.
anonbanker 12y ago
I've shamelessly copied Microsoft's noticeoflawsuit.com and have used it as a template to recover two domains from people holding them ransom from the rightful owners. It's a fantastic process, and I have to thank Mr. Haimovichi for the cool legal tricks he taught me in his paperwork. Just make sure you have someone competent in the other jurisdiction that can file/serve the paperwork (Australia/Canada in my case), and it's remarkably straightforward. The defendant can only argue once the domain has been transferred over, so you'll get your domain back asap. In our case, the defendant didn't want to hire a lawyer (we're all self-representing advocates on the plaintiff's side), and we're expecting him to default in 15 days. The last four months of head games and BOFH behavior were quashed in less than 72 hours after the filing was completed in both jurisdictions. Before Microsoft vs. No-ip.com, I was not a fan of ICANN. This process has certainly changed my tune, however.
- bo1024 12y ago
  > the defendant can only argue once the domain has been transferred over Sounds like a very scummy thing to do. Any legal system that allows this sort of tactic is ripe for abuse.
  - anonbanker 12y ago
    Welcome to international contract law. You are guilty (and are expected to make reparations) until proven innocent. The legal system is more ripe for abuse than anyone really knows. Another reason contract law should be taught in high schools
- sbierwagen 12y ago
  Good god, how can you defend against this? All my email goes to my personal domain name-- if someone decides to sieze my domain name they have all the keys to the kingdom.
MattyRad 12y ago
The exact same legal precedent could be used to seize hotmail.com for all the spam, scams, and viruses floating through it. I am willing to bet the judge was handed a 2 foot tall stack of papers with technical gibberish which she of course, didn't read, but had complete assurance from these slimy Microsoft lawyers that they knew what they were doing. If any other company tried the same move, the judge would dismiss it instantly. But of course, the law can't operate the same way for a 16 person company vs. a 100,000+ person company. I think this clip fairly accurately summarizes the ordeal: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8vxEimC3HME https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8vxEimC3HME
socrates1998 12y ago
So Microsoft build a product, Windows, that a customer was using to run his business and that he purchased legally. Then, when the product that they built wasn't working correctly, they seized this guys business and held it for ransom. Not exactly what I would call "free market", but this is how Microsoft has done business for years.

193 points by ghosh 12y ago

It wasn't mentioned in the article but there was also a lot of controversy on how Microsoft handled the Operation B71. http://blog.fox-it.com/2012/04/12/critical-analysis-of-microsoft-operation-b71/ http://blog.fox-it.com/2012/04/12/critical-analysis-of-micro...

ath0 12y ago

Good article and timely, because they just did another big response two days ago: http://blogs.technet.com/b/mmpc/archive/2014/10/14/msrt-october-2014-hikiti.aspx http://blogs.technet.com/b/mmpc/archive/2014/10/14/msrt-octo... While this didn't involve a broad takedown of a public provider (as far as I'm aware), it did involve coordinated release of tools and more-targeted takedown requests through their semi-private "Coordinated Malware Eradication" program. On balance, I think what Microsoft is doing is a good thing, but public scrutiny and discussion of any organization/cartel that operates in secret is equally important.

coldcode 12y ago

I'm sorry that people are hacking Microsoft's OSs, but this is "legal" piracy. The US courts should not and cannot condone one-sided private legal decisions. Sure the Federal government can vaguely justify doing this themselves but allowing a private corporation this right is beyond even a random reading of the constituion.

hollerith 12y ago
Well, Microsoft only acted after they got a court order. So, it seems to me that your "real" objection, if I may presume to say, is that the Courts are giving Microsoft a lot of say as to which entities on the internet are bad actors. But do you really want FBI agents or other federal executive-branch employees to have that say instead? Isn't it better for decisions like that to be made by organizations with greater technical competency than the executive branch of the US government? Of course, if Microsoft starts using these court orders to hobble their competitors, then that is bad, but no one is asserting that they have started doing that; are they? Also, if other computer companies, e.g., Google and Apple, started doing what Microsoft is, the Courts would give their expertise approximately the same amount of deference that they currently give Microsoft -- or more precisely, I have seen no signs that that is not the case. An analogy: would you not prefer for the laws and executive-branch policies related to software patents to be decided by computer companies and software professionals rather than elected officials, their legislative aids and lobbyists? (According to Eben Moglen, current US laws and policy around software patents are largely influenced by lobbyists for the pharmaceutical companies who feel the need to oppose any weakening of patent "rights" in any industry.) More precisely: if individuals and organizations without deep technical knowledge were prohibited from influencing policy on software patents, would not that be an improvement over the current situation?
- xorcist 12y ago
  > But do you really want FBI agents or other federal executive-branch employees to have that say instead? Dear god yes. Law enforcement may need these enforcements from time to time, but you can not let a private company slap around their competitors at will using the same methods.
  - hollerith 12y ago
    What competitor did Microsoft slap around? Do you consider No-IP a competitor to Microsoft?
    - pmontra 12y ago
      With Azure they are more or less in the same business.
      - morganvachon 12y ago
        Really? That's like saying a guy on the corner selling tourist maps is more or less in the same business as Delta Air Lines, because Delta has a brochure stand in the airport lobby. No-IP offers domain/DDNS service, Microsoft Azure is a full stack cloud service similar to Amazon's AWS, and is a small part of a much larger company. There is no competition there.
        xorcist 12y ago
        No-IP sells managed DNS, which you can get with Azure as well, so in that particular service they are direct competitors. But with an as large company as Microsoft there will be overlap with pretty much every other company on the planet, so that's not necessarily relevant. I was speaking in a more general sense. If Microsoft could do this, other companies can. If they could do it against No-IP, they can the same thing to others.
      - FleshGordon 12y ago
        Oh come off it
anonbanker 12y ago
You should probably read these legal docs again. Thew US courts did not approve this, as it was an international court.
- nknighthb 12y ago
  What are you talking about? It was a lawsuit filed in US District Court for the District of Nevada under state and federal laws. There is no international court with jurisdiction over such a suit. http://www.noticeoflawsuit.com/docs/Second%20Amended%20Order%20Granting%20Ex%20Parte%20Application%20for%20a%20TRO.pdf http://www.noticeoflawsuit.com/docs/Second%20Amended%20Order...
  - anonbanker 12y ago
    So you're stating that the two Pro Hac Vice applications were just pointless pieces of paper? It was filed in accordance with state and federal law, but you'll pay attention to the fact that the notice was served in three countries, as well as via the website. You should also notice that they had the individual registrars (in other countries) execute their process. Why would those non-state parties even agree to act on the process if there was no obligation for them to do so?
    - nknighthb 12y ago
      None of that indicates an international court. Attorneys in the US are licensed to practice per-state. Pro Hac Vice petitions are necessary whenever they seek to appear in a case outside the state(s) they are licensed in. In this case, two California attorneys were appearing in court in Nevada. There is nothing "international" about that. Parties to a lawsuit, no matter where they are, have an obligation to respond under US law. If they never want to travel to or do business in the US or any other country whose courts will enforce US judgements (there are many that will), they are, of course, free to ignore the summons and/or orders (unless ICAAN says otherwise, in case of the registries). Note also that the orders are signed by Gloria M. Navarro, Chief Judge, United States District Court for the District of Nevada. This is a US court. I have no idea why you think otherwise. There is nothing to indicate otherwise.

rlpb 12y ago

"Microsoft had a plan in place to keep legitimate customers online, while stopping the malware, but it didn’t work." Presumably Microsoft were able to convince a judge that their plan was acceptable on the basis that they had a plan and it would work. IMHO, that should be enough in itself to hold Microsoft culpable for all damages as a consequence of their plan failing. Nothing against Microsoft in particular here; anyone can screw up. It should just be a general rule that applies equally to everyone in this sort of case. Doing this "ex parte temporary restraining order" without any opportunity for the targeted party to respond presents enough of a risk to the target that it should only be permitted if the party requesting it is prepared to take the financial hit should they screw up. Perhaps the funds should even be required to be held in escrow. Enough to cover the target's financial collapse.

drivingmenuts 12y ago
>Nothing against Microsoft in particular here; anyone can screw up. Well, except for the bit where they appointed themselves Sheriff without any legal authority. Sure, what they did may have been legal, but anointing themselves doesn't sound legal to me. It's the moral equivalent of someone appointing themself the President because he or she has the biggest and most guns.
- rlpb 12y ago
  > Well, except for the bit where they appointed themselves Sheriff without any legal authority. AFAICT, this is factually incorrect. They acquired a court order, did they not? They didn't appoint themselves as anything. They asked a court, and a court agreed. This is how the legal system should work. If you have a problem with it, then you can petition for laws that bind a court to do something else instead. This is what I am saying: a court should be bound by law to ensure the target is adequately protected financially in this sort of case.
  - UnoriginalGuy 12y ago
    > This is how the legal system should work. Nonsense. The legal system is a two party system where both sides get to make an argument and an independent arbitrator makes a judgement. The way Microsoft are using the law, effectively the other party never gets to argue and the first they hear about the lawsuit is when Microsoft has already won. That isn't how the legal system is meant to work. The Lanham Act is broken.

peterwwillis 12y ago

"The irony is that No-IP had worked with Microsoft in the past. The company had collaborated with Microsoft’s anti-piracy group, and it also worked on the takedown of the Mariposa botnet, which was dismantled in 2010. Especially give their prior relationship, No-IP’s Zigenis wishes Microsoft had reached out for help with the takedown instead of going to the courts. “All this action, all the work that Microsoft did,” he says. “Whatever they spent on their lawsuit could have been saved by a phone call.” "His point is that, with the No-IP takedown, Microsoft didn’t work with others. It didn’t even work with No-IP. It served the company papers without asking the No-IP to shutdown bad actors or even telling the company what it planned to do." Fuck. Microsoft.

TheRealDunkirk 12y ago
Yeah, there's really no excuse for not talking to the people at the company first. The only reason I can fathom would be that if Microsoft suspected the owner of No-IP to be actually involved with the botnet operators. (Especially given that they had a previous relationship, this is inexcusable, but it shouldn't have mattered anyway.) If Microsoft had contacted them first, and No-IP had given them some reason to suspect that they were culpable, then, by all means, work through the legal system. The whole notion of sealed legal precedings, as with the FISA court, gives me the willies. It's almost like the exact opposite of what the Bill of Rights was supposed to ensure for protections of the populace against their government. How much more offensive is it that this type of action was used against a individual running a commercial company, not involved in any way with "national defense" issues?
- anonbanker 12y ago
  This was an international case. The Bill of Rights of the United States of America does not apply. To impose the BoR on a non party would be a violation of their human rights, guaranteed by the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.
  - TheCoelacanth 12y ago
    The court was in Las Vegas, and Microsoft, No-IP and the company that was ordered to redirect the domains are all based in the US. In what sense is this an international case?

spanker 12y ago

TD;DR? http://www.noip.com/blog/2014/07/10/microsoft-takedown-details-updates/ http://www.noip.com/blog/2014/07/10/microsoft-takedown-detai... The "new Microsoft" is worse than the old one.

morganvachon 12y ago
There's nothing really "new" about this though. Microsoft has been doing this for a while; it didn't start with Nadella taking the reins. My take: Microsoft dropped the ball while genuinely trying to do a good thing. First, they should have communicated with No-IP as they have in the past instead of seeking a secret court order; they have worked together in the past and there was no reason they couldn't this time as well. Failing that, the court should have required Microsoft to reimburse No-IP for any lost revenue due to the action, given that No-IP was not allowed to even know about the order, much less present their side or make an attempt to work with Microsoft. I honestly don't think Microsoft set out to destroy No-IP's business, there simply isn't a logical reason for that. They aren't a direct competitor (Microsoft is not in the dynamic DNS business to my knowledge), and if they were, using the court like this to destroy a competitor would end badly for Microsoft. No, I think they just plain goofed. It definitely sucks that they aren't more willing to help No-IP get back on their feet.
- xorcist 12y ago
  > instead of seeking a secret court order The blame here must reside with the justice system. There will always be companies attacking their competitors by legal means, it must be the responsibility of the system to not let them get away with it.
  - morganvachon 12y ago
    Indeed, the situation reeks of a rubber-stamp mentality among the court staff involved with this case. Having worked in law enforcement in the past, I've seen first hand how some judges can just blindly approve whatever warrant or order comes across their desk without so much as a cursory glance at the details, consequences be damned.

throwawaykf05 12y ago

>"Whatever they spent on their lawsuit could have been saved by a phone call." Wasn't Microsoft's precise concern that such a call could have been tantamount to giving botnet operators advance notice? I seem to recall when this was discussed previously that some HN commenters had similar experiences with traffic from No-Ip domains and considered them to be in cahoots with the botnet operators.

pmorici 12y ago
Perhaps but beyond vague allusions there haven't been any facts provided that I can see that show that is the case.
xorcist 12y ago
But those allegations just doesn't make sense. Does anyone seriously believe botnet operators to be paying customers of No-IP? Why else would they give them advance notice? Out of spite? No-IP has absolutely nothing to gain from it and everything to lose. It just doesn't make sense. Has there ever been any real indication that this was the case?
- marvy 12y ago
  They would not do it on purpose. The fear was about accidentally somehow letting it slip. No idea how.
lawnchair_larry 12y ago
You've shown the unfortunate side effect of Microsoft's libel. Now, many people think no-ip is a shady organization. It isn't the least bit true, and there was no link between no-ip and the people abusing their service.

templeos2 12y ago

Microsoft has shamelessly spread fear to drive people to safe companies. Now, Microsft is going to Hell. God is perfectly just. You can trust that the people are going to hell too.

lostcolony 12y ago

"Boscovich remembered a case he’d seen argued back in his Florida days. A maker of designer handbags had been granted the right to seize the bags from the counterfeiters. Because its brand was being harmed by the infringement, the court gave it the ok to seize the bags. A year after Waledac, Boscovich used this argument to seize the Rustock servers." This is fascinating. This is an actual, tangible case where intellectual property law had more teeth, and more negative side effects, than the existing cyberlaws. It's evidence both that trying to take law that applies to physical goods and apply it digitally is not trivial (if even possible to do fairly), as well as how much cyberlaw has lagged behind the evolution of technology, in a context completely separate from the usual ones (DRM, copying = piracy?, etc).

at-fates-hands 12y ago

It was an unfriendly conversation. Microsoft was willing to hand over No-IP’s domains, but only if the company met certain terms. Microsoft’s specific demands are protected by a confidentiality agreement, so we can’t say exactly what they were, but Durrer says that, if he had complied, they would have put No-IP out of business. This should make anyone scared to death. The fact a company with little or no oversight can simply lock down a companies servers and then hold them for ransom is quite freighting. Add in the fact No-IP had no say in the issue and this was all done in secret is rather unnerving.

paddyoloughlin 12y ago

Wired: Stop making cursor keys initiate navigation! This drives me nuts!

josu 12y ago
What do you mean?
- paddyoloughlin 12y ago
  When reading a Wired article, holding down shift and pressing left or right cursor loads another article. Often, when reading articles, I highlight the part I am currently reading and then track where I'm reading by extending the highlight with shift and right or down cursor. This has been fine for me for over 15 years, until reading a few Wired articles over the past while and coming across this new feature of theirs.

orf 12y ago

I'm glad Microsoft is doing what law enforcement seems incapable of doing. Microsoft also has a huge vested interest in cleaning up Windows related malware, and huge cash reserves. I expect they spend more than most countries do on combatting cybercrime.

serf 12y ago
>I'm glad Microsoft is doing what law enforcement seems incapable of doing. Yeah! why make our seized domains go to waste redirecting to a landing page like the FBI when we could make them work for us while ruining some company's user experience like Microsoft did!! Yeah! law enforcement & microsoft are equally capable of feeding judges bullshit in order to put their hands where they don't belong and destroy fragile systems.
- iso27002 12y ago
  Why not aim your anger towards No-IP, given the following? "Our research revealed that out of all Dynamic DNS providers, No-IP domains are used 93 percent of the time for Bladabindi-Jenxcus infections, which are the most prevalent among the 245 different types of malware currently exploiting No-IP domains. Microsoft has seen more than 7.4 million Bladabindi-Jenxcus detections over the past 12 months, which doesn’t account for detections by other anti-virus providers. Despite numerous reports by the security community on No-IP domain abuse, the company has not taken sufficient steps to correct, remedy, prevent or control the abuse or help keep its domains safe from malicious activity." http://blogs.microsoft.com/blog/2014/06/30/microsoft-takes-on-global-cybercrime-epidemic-in-tenth-malware-disruption/ http://blogs.microsoft.com/blog/2014/06/30/microsoft-takes-o...
  - kbart 12y ago
    Why stop here? Maybe just let Microsoft police whole Internet, after all, 100% of malware operates on it. MS should clean their house first and start taking OS security seriously instead of putting blame on legitimate business.

geobz123 12y ago

Interesting read, I hate when I see that like the post says about this Attorney... he has no idea about computers yet he is trying to fight something in computers. I get that in real life all the time people that have no knowledge of computing and the internet want to change it... cause they are trying to show other people that they do.

SG- 12y ago

What I don't understand is how a botnet could negatively affect Microsoft other than showing the world through news articles how it infected vulnerable Microsoft software? Is the bad press basically the reason and justification?

bayesianhorse 12y ago
The conficker worm did cause significant harm for Microsoft's customers and Microsoft's direct or indirect costs associated in fighting the worm will have been considerable.
oconnor663 12y ago
Botnets are responsible for lots of (most?) spam and DDOSs. Those hurt everyone on the internet, not just Windows users.
- SG- 12y ago
  I understand that, and they should be taken down. But Microsoft is using justification that it's hurting their business in order to take over other businesses and shut them down.

gregd 12y ago

I can't help but feel that with a judiciary that seems to be largely "out of touch" with technology, that when Microsoft walks into the courtroom and says something is bad...that the enamored judge thinks to herself, "well then it must be bad".

wyager 12y ago

This is a prime example of why critical internet systems (namely domain name resolution) need to be completely and absolutely out of reach of government officials (some of whom are guaranteed to be corrupt) and private corporations (some of which are guaranteed to have interests contrary to the public).

harryjo 12y ago
And controlled by... who?
- wyager 12y ago
  No one. See namecoin.

tzakrajs 12y ago

This is ethically reprehensible.

anonbanker 12y ago

I've shamelessly copied Microsoft's noticeoflawsuit.com and have used it as a template to recover two domains from people holding them ransom from the rightful owners. It's a fantastic process, and I have to thank Mr. Haimovichi for the cool legal tricks he taught me in his paperwork. Just make sure you have someone competent in the other jurisdiction that can file/serve the paperwork (Australia/Canada in my case), and it's remarkably straightforward. The defendant can only argue once the domain has been transferred over, so you'll get your domain back asap. In our case, the defendant didn't want to hire a lawyer (we're all self-representing advocates on the plaintiff's side), and we're expecting him to default in 15 days. The last four months of head games and BOFH behavior were quashed in less than 72 hours after the filing was completed in both jurisdictions. Before Microsoft vs. No-ip.com, I was not a fan of ICANN. This process has certainly changed my tune, however.

bo1024 12y ago
> the defendant can only argue once the domain has been transferred over Sounds like a very scummy thing to do. Any legal system that allows this sort of tactic is ripe for abuse.
- anonbanker 12y ago
  Welcome to international contract law. You are guilty (and are expected to make reparations) until proven innocent. The legal system is more ripe for abuse than anyone really knows. Another reason contract law should be taught in high schools
sbierwagen 12y ago
Good god, how can you defend against this? All my email goes to my personal domain name-- if someone decides to sieze my domain name they have all the keys to the kingdom.

MattyRad 12y ago

The exact same legal precedent could be used to seize hotmail.com for all the spam, scams, and viruses floating through it. I am willing to bet the judge was handed a 2 foot tall stack of papers with technical gibberish which she of course, didn't read, but had complete assurance from these slimy Microsoft lawyers that they knew what they were doing. If any other company tried the same move, the judge would dismiss it instantly. But of course, the law can't operate the same way for a 16 person company vs. a 100,000+ person company. I think this clip fairly accurately summarizes the ordeal: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8vxEimC3HME https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8vxEimC3HME

socrates1998 12y ago

So Microsoft build a product, Windows, that a customer was using to run his business and that he purchased legally. Then, when the product that they built wasn't working correctly, they seized this guys business and held it for ransom. Not exactly what I would call "free market", but this is how Microsoft has done business for years.