9 ms·

Learn to Code, Get Hired

36 points by RosieA 12y ago

EmilLamprecht 12y ago
But which schools are the best is the question? Anyone taken courses at these places? What were the good and bad of it?
- chazu 12y ago
  As an entirely self-taught programmer, I say skip these programs entirely. When I got my first real programming gig, my company sent me to a quick, 7-or-8 session long bootcamp for rails, although I'd already taught myself all the rails conventions. The program was a huge waste of time for me, and a waste of money for my employer. I had already gotten 500% more out of just reading guides.rubyonrails.org than I did in the entire program. If I had been required to pay for the instruction, I'd have come out feeling distinctly ripped off, especially if I had been a web designer who'd never used command-line build tools before. This might vary with the program. The particular format of the one I attended just wasn't well-suited to getting people up and running quickly, or addressing the varied needs of students at different levels. That being said, learning _how to learn to program_ is much more important. Learning that failure is the first step to success and a prerequisite to actually synthesizing knowledge. If they could teach that in these courses, they'd be priceless. Hope that helps, kind of rambling but, that's my experience :)
  - socialmatchbox 12y ago
    It varies WIDELY with the program. Not all of these are rip offs. Not all of the students get the same or need the same things as you. There are all kinds of different ways that people learn. There are also lots of different levels that people are coming into things on.
- jlees 12y ago
  It depends on your definition of 'best'. Do you want to leave with a solid understanding of how a programming language works, how memory functions, many of the fundamental algorithms and data structures in CS, and more of that kind? Or do you want to leave with a couple of different, solid Rails/Python/JavaScript/mobile apps under your belt, and go straight into app development? Different courses focus on different things. Many of the online courses skip the former and jump straight into 'rails generate' -- but not all of them, especially if you supplement with Coursera courses which are often far more academic in nature. The in-person bootcamps vary a lot, and I had a fairly low opinion of them as a breed until I started mentoring Hackbright students and realising that they do learn the fundamentals -- but I know there are others that don't teach that stuff at all. Disclaimer: I'm a part-time instructor at Hackbright Academy and a former Thinkful mentor. In structuring the part-time class I have had to think a lot about how to help convey the elements of CS in a very limited time-frame. It's tough. I honestly welcome feedback and discussion from others who have tried to do it.
J_Darnley 12y ago
What if I can already do the first part, what automatically provides the second part? I might post a more detailed comment if I could actually find somewhere to view this content.
- RosieA 12y ago
  Nothing automatically provides the job. We're talking about a process hidden behind a click-happy headline. A huge part of the comments in this feed have been discussing the challenge of teaching bootcamp students what the actual career is about, what getting jobs is about, that realistically learning to code is just one small part of being a developer. Does the headline say all that? God now. Does the article say that? Nope, because its trying to draw in all interested parties. The problem is that some, perhaps many, maybe even almost all bootcamps on that list? They might not clarify it until to late. Some of us are trying to figure it out. Both how to communicate it, but maybe even the actual solution! In the mean time, if you can code start pitching on elance, man! There is always work even for those of us who are, quiet frankly, sub-par developers> our CMO can code, he sucks at it. ;-)
crazypyro 12y ago
Site is down for me and no webarchive yet, does someone have another cached link? e: Its back, but in case it goes down again: http://web.archive.org/web/20141016140435/http://blog.careerfoundry.com/learn-code-get-hired/ http://web.archive.org/web/20141016140435/http://blog.career...
- RosieA 12y ago
  We got KILLED by traffic today, sorry about that!
king_magic 12y ago
For what it's worth, I think articles like this do a huge disservice to people looking for an easy way to "get hired coding", at least in terms of setting peoples' expectations. Reading this, this article makes it seem (to me, at least) like there are just thousands and thousands of companies who will happily hire you right away once you go through a few of these courses. It's simply just not the reality, at least from my perspective as an architect at relatively decent sized consulting company (600+ people). It would be extremely unlikely for us to hire someone without a 4 year degree in a relative discipline (CS, software engineering, etc.). That's not to say we don't hire people without a 4 year degree, but those people have years of hardcore experience and are just as advanced/mature as their counterparts with degree - a far cry from taking a few online courses and declaring yourself "a coder". I'm not trying to be an elitist or anything here - just being realistic.
- RosieA 12y ago
  Hi King_Magic I understand the point you're making, but for people who haven't studied computer science at university, or haven't been tinkering on a computer since they were a small child, these courses are a way they can break into this career. Tech should not be an elusive industry - especially when their is such a huge shortage of skills. These courses open up the scene for people who don't have the background in the industry, but want to change careers or expand in their current roles. No one is saying (and the article certainly isn't) that you can just jump straight into a job after a few weeks studying an online course, but what is true is that by studying online people can acquire skills via a course, then build up their experience over time, build a portfolio and then get a job.
  - JoeAltmaier 12y ago
    I'm thinking this may be an illusion. Is there any evidence that this route works? I know that the effective programmers I work with, have similar life stories. They love programming, have done it since they were young, do it for themselves and not just for work. The guy who gets a CS degree because there's money in it may get a job somewhere, but not in the circles I travel in. Which is architecture, design, backends, libraries and embedded solutions. So what is the real opportunity to a part-time online-course student?
RosieA 12y ago
Hi guys, The site is back up again now - please try again!
deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
7Figures2Commas 12y ago
It's like 1998 all over again, when basic HTML knowledge promised the key to a comfortable middle class existence. And if you knew tables and how to use spacer GIFs, the sky was the limit! The only difference is that in 1998, you actually did have a realistic chance of finding a job in tech with limited knowledge and skill. Today's supposed tech labor shortage is more the result of a lack of experienced, highly-qualified candidates who fit a certain mold and reside in a handful of geographic areas. There is no shortage of the inexperienced, under-qualified candidates bootcamps and online programs produce.
- famousactress 12y ago
  This is exactly right. In '98-'00 people in this situation were actually getting hired, in droves. I'd venture to guess most of them lost their jobs a couple years later and fell out of software development altogether, though.
  - RosieA 12y ago
    Really? I feel like most people I know who were developers before the bust are either millionaires or still rocking. A few moves on when the bubble blew out, I even lived in an apartment in SF of a failed 2 man company during that time period; they both went to back to being finance guys. But that was the catalyst of the industry we're now all talking about, and its grown more and faster than many other. It also took a lot of crappy people to produce the few genuine talents that took the industry by storm. The industry is growing faster than talent because its not standardized or accessible enough for all potential to be found. The problem is greater than a discussion of the validity of bootcamps, and though business driven I would argue bootcamps are a step towards understanding the true needs on a global scale.
    - famousactress 12y ago
      > most people I know who were developers before the bust are either millionaires or still rocking My experience varies. Of the (admittedly few) people I can think of that I knew personally and who were trained-on-the-job during this time none are still developing software (though one works in QA and one is a project manager of a tech company last I heard). > I would argue bootcamps are a step towards understanding the true needs on a global scale Yeah, I buy that there's non-zero insight to be gleaned from some experience running these code camps for the industry at large. But we'll be doing that on the backs of people who guinea pig these programs in the short term with misaligned expectations, and relatively short term desires for new employment. You're selling people something they can "sell" to others (marketable skills). The people being expected to evaluate (and then pony up for) the value proposition here are by definition uniquely unqualified to do so. That's why it feels like a scam. If Facebook decided they wanted to run people through these programs for free because they thought it might have some value and solve a real need for talent that they have, I wouldn't be complaining. As a matter of fact, it's telling that they aren't.
UUMMUU 12y ago
This is one of the biggest problems with the industry now; a lot of people learning to code without learning computer science. Coding is applying computer science fundamentals and without those fundamentals, you end up writing terrible and unmanageable code. Bootcamps are one of the worst ideas because they charge a lot of money, waste a lot of time with overzealous promises and, worst of all, hurt the industry by cranking out sub-par developers. Don't push people to learn to code, push people to learn computer science, math and algorithms.
- arenaninja 12y ago
  Partly because I'm self-taught, I don't know how much of your statement I agree with. I agree that the bootcamps thing is out of control, but I don't think that I agree that it's bad to code without learning computer science. It might make you more effective, but I've known people with CS degrees who were terrible at coding. Also, in college, I could design better relational databases than CS students in their last year of college (well, my roommate at least, who went on to work at Microsoft). But I don't know the difference between a binary tree and a b-tree, because it's never been necessary for me to implement one. Even then, I'm curious about CS and read up on it when I have free time, and I've been working on nand2tetris, but that's mostly because I'm curious, and while I think it's interesting I don't think it's made me a better programmer (yet). I've also had interviews for web dev that included algorithm/data structure (most don't!), one such place even wanted to hire me, but I didn't want to work there because given the nature of the job I find it unlikely that I would be writing most of the things they asked me about
  - socialmatchbox 12y ago
    A lot of big companies like MS hire boy scouts (or girl scouts) who feel that they need a certification to carry around a pocket knife at camp for their entry level jobs. They also hire really smart people too, but they tend to hire the B's, not the A's. Sometimes it isn't clear whether they can tell or not. They like people who can be molded ushered in a direction over time. What you are describing isn't isolated is all I am saying. For better or worse, these are hires that they can shape into sequoias in their forrest of talent.
redmattred 12y ago
I'm currently conducting a survey on the effectiveness of code bootcamps. If you've recently attended one, please share your experiences at: http://www.codejobs.io/surveys/codebootcamp/student http://www.codejobs.io/surveys/codebootcamp/student
- RosieA 12y ago
  Hey! This is awesome! Will you be publishing your results!?! Would love to see the data!
ilghiro 12y ago
I'm still excited for the day when a 2 hours a week, 6 week bootcamp sets me up to easily become a pilot or an architect.
- RosieA 12y ago
  Yes! I guess the only real difference there is that both those skills directly endanger other people! :-p
  - king_magic 12y ago
    So poor software doesn't directly endanger other people? This is why I'm so nervous about a generation of "coders" - they just don't know what they don't know. Software can get people killed. Or (far more likely) can get peoples' bank accounts wiped clean.
    - RosieA 12y ago
      I think if we're talking about someone coding portfolio websites and ecommerce shops using validated API's, we're not talking rocket science but we are talking the basis of a career. I have a hard time believing that wordpress developers end up endangering many people. Even more advanced software technicians, guys who are brilliant are making games and a great living but aren't putting anyone in harm's way. Cardeology? Yes. Draw bridge tech, probably. Car computers, for sure. A social responsbility to recognize that you're good enough for that? Yes but I'm sure the people hiring you aren't going to mess around with that kind of thing. People who want to learn web development to make fun/cool products and living don't need to be concerned about the complexities of banking software unless that's what they want to be doing with their lives, and I would hope that people like you, people advanced enough to do the hiring, aren't going to hire any dummies to do it.
pnathan 12y ago
Gack! No! Nearly all of the recommendations are a really bad disservice. Learning to code is relatively straightforward. Learning to do it well, applying the fundamental principles of computer science, is a different kind of horse (transportation device). People in the industry KNOW this. It's obvious. You have to put in the time to really know what you're about, and bootcamps & MOOCs don't really bridge the gap between 'ignoramus' and 'junior professional' as a rule of thumb. Of course, if you subject yourself to a diet of these things and study the field for some time (months at least), doing serious investigation of the fundamentals, I don't think you'd be much different than a particularly motivated intern or new grad. :) That said - if you are, e.g., a marketing person, learning coding to help do your job and simplify your work will do amazing things for you, I hear. Learning source control will drastically make "copy 1 of report final 1" type problems go away. As patio11 often says, automating business process has huge value. (Which, by the by, doesn't make you a professional software developer if you do it). Coding is a great skill, applicable in many places, but professional software creation with the high salary comes at the cost of serious competition with people who have seriously studied this topic for a long time.
- RosieA 12y ago
  Totally agree with this. Reaching the top level of anything takes time and dedication, but there is huge value to having a rudimentary understanding of code regardless of your professional focus. Code is slowly becoming a mandatory part of education in primary and secondary schools in Europe. Do you think this helps approach the greater infrastructure of tech?
  - pnathan 12y ago
    I would actually argue that "code" should be taught at the same time as algebra formally. But I don't know enough about European education systems to specify more.
    - RosieA 12y ago
      Well you nailed it pretty much on the head. UK is already placing mandates that begin enforcement next year that state secondary schools must supply a rudimentary coding education to all students. Other EU countries are soon to follow, and the US government is essentially running tests across certain districts of similar ideas. Problem at the moment is that we don't have teachers in the world who can code, much less teach it. We actually launched the first pieces of a platform today that approaches this issue. We'll be releasing more news soon about our efforts to collaborate with schools and governments to Teach Teachers to Teach Code! http://bit.ly/teach-the-teachers http://bit.ly/teach-the-teachers
adregan 12y ago
I haven't an opinion on boot camps as they currently run (but am entirely self taught and having a great time architecting and building APIs and front end applications); however, I wish that the " Interested in learning to code, but not so keen on leaving your current employer?" section was the focus of the article and the boot camps. A buddy of mine told me about the cascading discounts that he and his coworkers calculated by hand. They all know how to do it, but he wanted an quicker way. A little recursive function later and I made him a simple little calculator he could pull up on his phone. It saves him—and his coworkers—time and would completely be within everyone's grasp to create with a little bit of training. I wish there was a push for practical programming and automation for everyone. Boot camps to help you improve your work through simple programming.
- RosieA 12y ago
  But did he WANT to code that himself? Or was it really a job for you? I actually agree, but as a business of course you go where the interest market is most stable. If nothing else than for the sake of your investor's heart-rate. ;-) Jokes aside, I'm wondering if the increasing demand for education in school systems and traditional education is the long term solution to exactly this problem. We're working hard in Europe to participate as much as we can as we feel the skills-gap philosophy is actually an education gap it just hasn't been figured out yet.
  - adregan 12y ago
    He was banging away at excel for a while trying to come up with a way to do it, and he probably would have hit on something sooner or later but wanted something for the next day, so I figured I'd give him a hand. I figure, as programming is able to become more abstract and high level, "practical programming" will become a lot easier.
kabdib 12y ago
"Matchbook programmers" Imagine a talent shortage; you are lacking skilled programmers. No, really! :-) So what you do is print out (say, on matchbook covers) a very small ad "Learn programming! Start a career!" with a phone number to call and you basically spam the whole country / world with these things. And a few people call in, and you screen them, and a few of those you bring in and talk to, and a few of those you might wind up hiring. And you plonk them into a classroom and teach them some programming, and a few people turn out to be just incredibly good natural programmers that you might not have gotten otherwise. (The ones you hired that didn't work out so well? You use them on government contracts). IBM's model in the 1970s (and probably a few other shops as well). It takes quite an investment, and you need to be able to deal with people at scale, which is something that start-ups and even most big companies (like Microsoft) are terrible at, for various reasons.
- RosieA 12y ago
  This is an awesome comment. Is there documentation on the IMB model you describe? I'd love to see data on this!
  - kabdib 12y ago
    Another drawback: A lot of the candidates you get are smokers. But hey.

36 points by RosieA 12y ago

EmilLamprecht 12y ago

But which schools are the best is the question? Anyone taken courses at these places? What were the good and bad of it?

chazu 12y ago
As an entirely self-taught programmer, I say skip these programs entirely. When I got my first real programming gig, my company sent me to a quick, 7-or-8 session long bootcamp for rails, although I'd already taught myself all the rails conventions. The program was a huge waste of time for me, and a waste of money for my employer. I had already gotten 500% more out of just reading guides.rubyonrails.org than I did in the entire program. If I had been required to pay for the instruction, I'd have come out feeling distinctly ripped off, especially if I had been a web designer who'd never used command-line build tools before. This might vary with the program. The particular format of the one I attended just wasn't well-suited to getting people up and running quickly, or addressing the varied needs of students at different levels. That being said, learning _how to learn to program_ is much more important. Learning that failure is the first step to success and a prerequisite to actually synthesizing knowledge. If they could teach that in these courses, they'd be priceless. Hope that helps, kind of rambling but, that's my experience :)
- socialmatchbox 12y ago
  It varies WIDELY with the program. Not all of these are rip offs. Not all of the students get the same or need the same things as you. There are all kinds of different ways that people learn. There are also lots of different levels that people are coming into things on.
jlees 12y ago
It depends on your definition of 'best'. Do you want to leave with a solid understanding of how a programming language works, how memory functions, many of the fundamental algorithms and data structures in CS, and more of that kind? Or do you want to leave with a couple of different, solid Rails/Python/JavaScript/mobile apps under your belt, and go straight into app development? Different courses focus on different things. Many of the online courses skip the former and jump straight into 'rails generate' -- but not all of them, especially if you supplement with Coursera courses which are often far more academic in nature. The in-person bootcamps vary a lot, and I had a fairly low opinion of them as a breed until I started mentoring Hackbright students and realising that they do learn the fundamentals -- but I know there are others that don't teach that stuff at all. Disclaimer: I'm a part-time instructor at Hackbright Academy and a former Thinkful mentor. In structuring the part-time class I have had to think a lot about how to help convey the elements of CS in a very limited time-frame. It's tough. I honestly welcome feedback and discussion from others who have tried to do it.

J_Darnley 12y ago

What if I can already do the first part, what automatically provides the second part? I might post a more detailed comment if I could actually find somewhere to view this content.

RosieA 12y ago
Nothing automatically provides the job. We're talking about a process hidden behind a click-happy headline. A huge part of the comments in this feed have been discussing the challenge of teaching bootcamp students what the actual career is about, what getting jobs is about, that realistically learning to code is just one small part of being a developer. Does the headline say all that? God now. Does the article say that? Nope, because its trying to draw in all interested parties. The problem is that some, perhaps many, maybe even almost all bootcamps on that list? They might not clarify it until to late. Some of us are trying to figure it out. Both how to communicate it, but maybe even the actual solution! In the mean time, if you can code start pitching on elance, man! There is always work even for those of us who are, quiet frankly, sub-par developers> our CMO can code, he sucks at it. ;-)

crazypyro 12y ago

Site is down for me and no webarchive yet, does someone have another cached link? e: Its back, but in case it goes down again: http://web.archive.org/web/20141016140435/http://blog.careerfoundry.com/learn-code-get-hired/ http://web.archive.org/web/20141016140435/http://blog.career...

RosieA 12y ago
We got KILLED by traffic today, sorry about that!

king_magic 12y ago

For what it's worth, I think articles like this do a huge disservice to people looking for an easy way to "get hired coding", at least in terms of setting peoples' expectations. Reading this, this article makes it seem (to me, at least) like there are just thousands and thousands of companies who will happily hire you right away once you go through a few of these courses. It's simply just not the reality, at least from my perspective as an architect at relatively decent sized consulting company (600+ people). It would be extremely unlikely for us to hire someone without a 4 year degree in a relative discipline (CS, software engineering, etc.). That's not to say we don't hire people without a 4 year degree, but those people have years of hardcore experience and are just as advanced/mature as their counterparts with degree - a far cry from taking a few online courses and declaring yourself "a coder". I'm not trying to be an elitist or anything here - just being realistic.

RosieA 12y ago
Hi King_Magic I understand the point you're making, but for people who haven't studied computer science at university, or haven't been tinkering on a computer since they were a small child, these courses are a way they can break into this career. Tech should not be an elusive industry - especially when their is such a huge shortage of skills. These courses open up the scene for people who don't have the background in the industry, but want to change careers or expand in their current roles. No one is saying (and the article certainly isn't) that you can just jump straight into a job after a few weeks studying an online course, but what is true is that by studying online people can acquire skills via a course, then build up their experience over time, build a portfolio and then get a job.
- JoeAltmaier 12y ago
  I'm thinking this may be an illusion. Is there any evidence that this route works? I know that the effective programmers I work with, have similar life stories. They love programming, have done it since they were young, do it for themselves and not just for work. The guy who gets a CS degree because there's money in it may get a job somewhere, but not in the circles I travel in. Which is architecture, design, backends, libraries and embedded solutions. So what is the real opportunity to a part-time online-course student?

RosieA 12y ago

Hi guys, The site is back up again now - please try again!

deleted 12y ago

[deleted]

7Figures2Commas 12y ago

It's like 1998 all over again, when basic HTML knowledge promised the key to a comfortable middle class existence. And if you knew tables and how to use spacer GIFs, the sky was the limit! The only difference is that in 1998, you actually did have a realistic chance of finding a job in tech with limited knowledge and skill. Today's supposed tech labor shortage is more the result of a lack of experienced, highly-qualified candidates who fit a certain mold and reside in a handful of geographic areas. There is no shortage of the inexperienced, under-qualified candidates bootcamps and online programs produce.

famousactress 12y ago
This is exactly right. In '98-'00 people in this situation were actually getting hired, in droves. I'd venture to guess most of them lost their jobs a couple years later and fell out of software development altogether, though.
- RosieA 12y ago
  Really? I feel like most people I know who were developers before the bust are either millionaires or still rocking. A few moves on when the bubble blew out, I even lived in an apartment in SF of a failed 2 man company during that time period; they both went to back to being finance guys. But that was the catalyst of the industry we're now all talking about, and its grown more and faster than many other. It also took a lot of crappy people to produce the few genuine talents that took the industry by storm. The industry is growing faster than talent because its not standardized or accessible enough for all potential to be found. The problem is greater than a discussion of the validity of bootcamps, and though business driven I would argue bootcamps are a step towards understanding the true needs on a global scale.
  - famousactress 12y ago
    > most people I know who were developers before the bust are either millionaires or still rocking My experience varies. Of the (admittedly few) people I can think of that I knew personally and who were trained-on-the-job during this time none are still developing software (though one works in QA and one is a project manager of a tech company last I heard). > I would argue bootcamps are a step towards understanding the true needs on a global scale Yeah, I buy that there's non-zero insight to be gleaned from some experience running these code camps for the industry at large. But we'll be doing that on the backs of people who guinea pig these programs in the short term with misaligned expectations, and relatively short term desires for new employment. You're selling people something they can "sell" to others (marketable skills). The people being expected to evaluate (and then pony up for) the value proposition here are by definition uniquely unqualified to do so. That's why it feels like a scam. If Facebook decided they wanted to run people through these programs for free because they thought it might have some value and solve a real need for talent that they have, I wouldn't be complaining. As a matter of fact, it's telling that they aren't.

UUMMUU 12y ago

This is one of the biggest problems with the industry now; a lot of people learning to code without learning computer science. Coding is applying computer science fundamentals and without those fundamentals, you end up writing terrible and unmanageable code. Bootcamps are one of the worst ideas because they charge a lot of money, waste a lot of time with overzealous promises and, worst of all, hurt the industry by cranking out sub-par developers. Don't push people to learn to code, push people to learn computer science, math and algorithms.

arenaninja 12y ago
Partly because I'm self-taught, I don't know how much of your statement I agree with. I agree that the bootcamps thing is out of control, but I don't think that I agree that it's bad to code without learning computer science. It might make you more effective, but I've known people with CS degrees who were terrible at coding. Also, in college, I could design better relational databases than CS students in their last year of college (well, my roommate at least, who went on to work at Microsoft). But I don't know the difference between a binary tree and a b-tree, because it's never been necessary for me to implement one. Even then, I'm curious about CS and read up on it when I have free time, and I've been working on nand2tetris, but that's mostly because I'm curious, and while I think it's interesting I don't think it's made me a better programmer (yet). I've also had interviews for web dev that included algorithm/data structure (most don't!), one such place even wanted to hire me, but I didn't want to work there because given the nature of the job I find it unlikely that I would be writing most of the things they asked me about
- socialmatchbox 12y ago
  A lot of big companies like MS hire boy scouts (or girl scouts) who feel that they need a certification to carry around a pocket knife at camp for their entry level jobs. They also hire really smart people too, but they tend to hire the B's, not the A's. Sometimes it isn't clear whether they can tell or not. They like people who can be molded ushered in a direction over time. What you are describing isn't isolated is all I am saying. For better or worse, these are hires that they can shape into sequoias in their forrest of talent.

redmattred 12y ago

I'm currently conducting a survey on the effectiveness of code bootcamps. If you've recently attended one, please share your experiences at: http://www.codejobs.io/surveys/codebootcamp/student http://www.codejobs.io/surveys/codebootcamp/student

RosieA 12y ago
Hey! This is awesome! Will you be publishing your results!?! Would love to see the data!

ilghiro 12y ago

I'm still excited for the day when a 2 hours a week, 6 week bootcamp sets me up to easily become a pilot or an architect.

RosieA 12y ago
Yes! I guess the only real difference there is that both those skills directly endanger other people! :-p
- king_magic 12y ago
  So poor software doesn't directly endanger other people? This is why I'm so nervous about a generation of "coders" - they just don't know what they don't know. Software can get people killed. Or (far more likely) can get peoples' bank accounts wiped clean.
  - RosieA 12y ago
    I think if we're talking about someone coding portfolio websites and ecommerce shops using validated API's, we're not talking rocket science but we are talking the basis of a career. I have a hard time believing that wordpress developers end up endangering many people. Even more advanced software technicians, guys who are brilliant are making games and a great living but aren't putting anyone in harm's way. Cardeology? Yes. Draw bridge tech, probably. Car computers, for sure. A social responsbility to recognize that you're good enough for that? Yes but I'm sure the people hiring you aren't going to mess around with that kind of thing. People who want to learn web development to make fun/cool products and living don't need to be concerned about the complexities of banking software unless that's what they want to be doing with their lives, and I would hope that people like you, people advanced enough to do the hiring, aren't going to hire any dummies to do it.

pnathan 12y ago

Gack! No! Nearly all of the recommendations are a really bad disservice. Learning to code is relatively straightforward. Learning to do it well, applying the fundamental principles of computer science, is a different kind of horse (transportation device). People in the industry KNOW this. It's obvious. You have to put in the time to really know what you're about, and bootcamps & MOOCs don't really bridge the gap between 'ignoramus' and 'junior professional' as a rule of thumb. Of course, if you subject yourself to a diet of these things and study the field for some time (months at least), doing serious investigation of the fundamentals, I don't think you'd be much different than a particularly motivated intern or new grad. :) That said - if you are, e.g., a marketing person, learning coding to help do your job and simplify your work will do amazing things for you, I hear. Learning source control will drastically make "copy 1 of report final 1" type problems go away. As patio11 often says, automating business process has huge value. (Which, by the by, doesn't make you a professional software developer if you do it). Coding is a great skill, applicable in many places, but professional software creation with the high salary comes at the cost of serious competition with people who have seriously studied this topic for a long time.

RosieA 12y ago
Totally agree with this. Reaching the top level of anything takes time and dedication, but there is huge value to having a rudimentary understanding of code regardless of your professional focus. Code is slowly becoming a mandatory part of education in primary and secondary schools in Europe. Do you think this helps approach the greater infrastructure of tech?
- pnathan 12y ago
  I would actually argue that "code" should be taught at the same time as algebra formally. But I don't know enough about European education systems to specify more.
  - RosieA 12y ago
    Well you nailed it pretty much on the head. UK is already placing mandates that begin enforcement next year that state secondary schools must supply a rudimentary coding education to all students. Other EU countries are soon to follow, and the US government is essentially running tests across certain districts of similar ideas. Problem at the moment is that we don't have teachers in the world who can code, much less teach it. We actually launched the first pieces of a platform today that approaches this issue. We'll be releasing more news soon about our efforts to collaborate with schools and governments to Teach Teachers to Teach Code! http://bit.ly/teach-the-teachers http://bit.ly/teach-the-teachers

adregan 12y ago

I haven't an opinion on boot camps as they currently run (but am entirely self taught and having a great time architecting and building APIs and front end applications); however, I wish that the " Interested in learning to code, but not so keen on leaving your current employer?" section was the focus of the article and the boot camps. A buddy of mine told me about the cascading discounts that he and his coworkers calculated by hand. They all know how to do it, but he wanted an quicker way. A little recursive function later and I made him a simple little calculator he could pull up on his phone. It saves him—and his coworkers—time and would completely be within everyone's grasp to create with a little bit of training. I wish there was a push for practical programming and automation for everyone. Boot camps to help you improve your work through simple programming.

RosieA 12y ago
But did he WANT to code that himself? Or was it really a job for you? I actually agree, but as a business of course you go where the interest market is most stable. If nothing else than for the sake of your investor's heart-rate. ;-) Jokes aside, I'm wondering if the increasing demand for education in school systems and traditional education is the long term solution to exactly this problem. We're working hard in Europe to participate as much as we can as we feel the skills-gap philosophy is actually an education gap it just hasn't been figured out yet.
- adregan 12y ago
  He was banging away at excel for a while trying to come up with a way to do it, and he probably would have hit on something sooner or later but wanted something for the next day, so I figured I'd give him a hand. I figure, as programming is able to become more abstract and high level, "practical programming" will become a lot easier.

kabdib 12y ago

"Matchbook programmers" Imagine a talent shortage; you are lacking skilled programmers. No, really! :-) So what you do is print out (say, on matchbook covers) a very small ad "Learn programming! Start a career!" with a phone number to call and you basically spam the whole country / world with these things. And a few people call in, and you screen them, and a few of those you bring in and talk to, and a few of those you might wind up hiring. And you plonk them into a classroom and teach them some programming, and a few people turn out to be just incredibly good natural programmers that you might not have gotten otherwise. (The ones you hired that didn't work out so well? You use them on government contracts). IBM's model in the 1970s (and probably a few other shops as well). It takes quite an investment, and you need to be able to deal with people at scale, which is something that start-ups and even most big companies (like Microsoft) are terrible at, for various reasons.

RosieA 12y ago
This is an awesome comment. Is there documentation on the IMB model you describe? I'd love to see data on this!
- kabdib 12y ago
  Another drawback: A lot of the candidates you get are smokers. But hey.