4 ms·

Just a tip: you don't want to be one of the people building a pyramid. You may want to think of a non-enslavement-and-death example when you explain why somewhe

Just a tip: you don't want to be one of the people building a pyramid. You may want to think of a non-enslavement-and-death example when you explain why somewhere might be a good place to work. I can just imagine the recruiter's pitch now...

nekopa 12y ago
I thought it was generally accepted now that the pyramids weren't built by slaves.
TeMPOraL 12y ago
Why? That slave labour was used to build pyramids is a popular but unfounded belief. There is evidence suggesting that some pyramids were built by well-paid government contractors. Also apparently American-type slavery was a historical abberation. A typical slave in the past was not unlike a salaried employee today. He was well-treated, earned good money for his services and was able to free himself after accumulating enough of it, which is not unlike the FU money many a startup founder wants to have. [0] - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egyptian_pyramid_construction_techniques http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egyptian_pyramid_construction_t... [1] - http://slatestarcodex.com/Stuff/manumission.pdf http://slatestarcodex.com/Stuff/manumission.pdf
- hueving 12y ago
  >free himself after accumulating enough of it If you don't think enslavement to a particular person is worse than working now, you need a reality check.
  - TeMPOraL 12y ago
    Do I? I mind you, "enslavement" has bad connotations mostly thanks to United States, it wasn't that bad in the ancient past. Also consider that technology sector is somewhat special in this regard. Your typical unskilled worker is pretty much a wage slave. Many a slave in the past (again, excluding US) was in much better situation than your average friendly neighbourhood supermarket clerk.
    - mbel 12y ago
      > Many a slave in the past (again, excluding US) was in much better situation than your average friendly neighbourhood supermarket clerk. Unless you are using some exotic definition of enslavement, there is a fundamental difference between slave an employee. A slave is a property of his owner [0], thus slave has no agency and is completely dependent on her/his owner decisions. Employee may choose to be dependent on her/his employer to any extent she/he chooses, but it is her/his choice. You may argue that both slave and employer may end up being completely dependent on her/his owner/employer, but from the point of view of the law and society the situation is always completely different. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery
      - ptaffs 12y ago
        There are other ways of enforced labour as well as slavery, and some are quite close to home. Indentured workers, and poor houses for example, and the company scrip, are slightly less brutal forms of something similar to slavery, as are workers in the penal system. In all of these systems the workers aren't really able to walk away from their "owner". And some of this is fairly recent involving Ikea [4] and Walmart [5]. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indentured_servant http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indentured_servant http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Company_scrip http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Company_scrip http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penal_labour http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penal_labour [4] http://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/17/business/global/ikea-to-report-on-allegations-of-using-forced-labor-during-cold-war.html?_r=0 http://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/17/business/global/ikea-to-re... [5] http://www.reuters.com/article/2008/09/05/mexico-walmex-idUSN0546591320080905 http://www.reuters.com/article/2008/09/05/mexico-walmex-idUS...
  - duaneb 12y ago
    Not all slavery is chattel slavery.
balazsdavid987 12y ago
I've cited pyramids as an example of what collaborative work can lead to. Of course it's not like slavery, but there's a lot of grinding going on even at Google, they just call it "passion for work".
snowwrestler 12y ago
Ok but if everyone is designing pyramids, and no one is building them, then pyramids never get built. At some point anything big just requires a ton of hard human work to actually be created.

nekopa 12y ago

I thought it was generally accepted now that the pyramids weren't built by slaves.

TeMPOraL 12y ago

Why? That slave labour was used to build pyramids is a popular but unfounded belief. There is evidence suggesting that some pyramids were built by well-paid government contractors. Also apparently American-type slavery was a historical abberation. A typical slave in the past was not unlike a salaried employee today. He was well-treated, earned good money for his services and was able to free himself after accumulating enough of it, which is not unlike the FU money many a startup founder wants to have. [0] - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egyptian_pyramid_construction_techniques http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egyptian_pyramid_construction_t... [1] - http://slatestarcodex.com/Stuff/manumission.pdf http://slatestarcodex.com/Stuff/manumission.pdf

hueving 12y ago
>free himself after accumulating enough of it If you don't think enslavement to a particular person is worse than working now, you need a reality check.
- TeMPOraL 12y ago
  Do I? I mind you, "enslavement" has bad connotations mostly thanks to United States, it wasn't that bad in the ancient past. Also consider that technology sector is somewhat special in this regard. Your typical unskilled worker is pretty much a wage slave. Many a slave in the past (again, excluding US) was in much better situation than your average friendly neighbourhood supermarket clerk.
  - mbel 12y ago
    > Many a slave in the past (again, excluding US) was in much better situation than your average friendly neighbourhood supermarket clerk. Unless you are using some exotic definition of enslavement, there is a fundamental difference between slave an employee. A slave is a property of his owner [0], thus slave has no agency and is completely dependent on her/his owner decisions. Employee may choose to be dependent on her/his employer to any extent she/he chooses, but it is her/his choice. You may argue that both slave and employer may end up being completely dependent on her/his owner/employer, but from the point of view of the law and society the situation is always completely different. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery
    - ptaffs 12y ago
      There are other ways of enforced labour as well as slavery, and some are quite close to home. Indentured workers, and poor houses for example, and the company scrip, are slightly less brutal forms of something similar to slavery, as are workers in the penal system. In all of these systems the workers aren't really able to walk away from their "owner". And some of this is fairly recent involving Ikea [4] and Walmart [5]. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indentured_servant http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indentured_servant http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Company_scrip http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Company_scrip http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penal_labour http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penal_labour [4] http://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/17/business/global/ikea-to-report-on-allegations-of-using-forced-labor-during-cold-war.html?_r=0 http://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/17/business/global/ikea-to-re... [5] http://www.reuters.com/article/2008/09/05/mexico-walmex-idUSN0546591320080905 http://www.reuters.com/article/2008/09/05/mexico-walmex-idUS...
- duaneb 12y ago
  Not all slavery is chattel slavery.

balazsdavid987 12y ago

I've cited pyramids as an example of what collaborative work can lead to. Of course it's not like slavery, but there's a lot of grinding going on even at Google, they just call it "passion for work".

snowwrestler 12y ago

Ok but if everyone is designing pyramids, and no one is building them, then pyramids never get built. At some point anything big just requires a ton of hard human work to actually be created.