6 ms·

So what you are saying is that you are biased against Microsoft and everyone else should be too?

spacemanmatt 12y ago
Microsoft has more than earned bias against them. You're free to form your own opinion, though.
SwellJoe 12y ago
Yes, I am biased against Microsoft. That bias is based on a history of what I believe is unethical behavior that hurt innovation on the Internet and in Open Source software. Others may not consider their past behavior unethical, or may believe in "forgive and forget" now that they seem to be playing fair, which is fine for those folks. I am not as ready to forget, even if I eventually find forgiveness. Regardless of what others think of Microsoft, I believe my disdain and mistrust for Microsoft is based on a reasonable understanding of historical facts, rather than some subjective vendetta. I've been a nerd for a long time. Microsoft has (until possibly very recently) never been a good citizen in the tech world.
- nbevans 12y ago
  Give over. Internet Explorer didn't hurt innovation at all. It was more innovative than Netscape by a country mile. IE was the first to pioneer CSS! And DHTML! Netscape pioneered, erm, cookies, I guess? There was no other web browser worth using other than IE or Netscape back in those wild west days of the Web. Yes there was a period of a year or two when Netscape entered the abyss and it took a while for a new competitor to IE to spring up. But that happened (Firefox) and shortly after Microsoft resumed development on IE too. You seem to have selective memory. IE brought A LOT of good to the Web. A LOT of good.
  - SwellJoe 12y ago
    Courts in Europe and the United States disagree with you. And, while I'm willing to believe juries and judges can make mistakes, I have to say I don't think the courts did enough...and they went after Microsoft for many of the more minor problems with Microsoft's business. "You seem to have selective memory. IE brought A LOT of good to the Web. A LOT of good." From where I'm sitting you have a very imaginative memory. IE was better than the competition because it destroyed the competition using the very unethical (and illegal, according to courts in several nations) tactics I've already mentioned. Honestly, I'm surprised anyone on HN would have so little knowledge of the history of Microsoft and the web that you would interpret their stranglehold on the browser as a positive thing. I simply can't wrap my head around it, it's so absurd to me.
    - nbevans 12y ago
      Thanks for the down vote for disagreeing with your opinion. The courts took issue with bundling it with Windows. Not that it was not innovative. There was even a few articles in recent years suggesting the courts went too far over the "bundling" case; sighting comparisons to vendor lock-in all over the industry now not reaching the courts at all. Just one top hit cite: http://readwrite.com/2013/11/12/apple-maps-takes-off-cue-the-antitrust-lawsuit http://readwrite.com/2013/11/12/apple-maps-takes-off-cue-the... The whole bundling IE case was fundamentally stupid and run by lawyers and judges who had no understand of the technology industry, the web and the wild west stage the web was going through. Back then, it was all about enablement. Getting people just onto the web in the first place was hard. They had to buy a computer, a modem, sign up with an ISP, possibly upgrade their operating system, install a web browser etc. But in those days, installing a web browser meant you had to go buy a Magazine from a shop just to get the CD-ROM. Microsoft viewed this, rightly, as an impediment. So they bundled IE with their OS. A practice that is still common place today by every major operating system that exists including Windows, Linux, OSX, Android, iOS, WinPhone. Without IE bringing DHTML we would not have the foundations that made modern day JavaScript, SPA, "Ajax" applications today. How is that not fostering innovation? IE 1 to 6 were a technology showcase to show everybody else what the web _could_ be or become. That's one reason why, though they'll never admit it, Mozilla abandoned Mozilla Suite and started work on Firefox. "So little knowledge of the history of Microsoft and the web"? Er, what? I date back to having to when you had to install a TCP/IP stack manually in order to get onto the web. What you're actually surprised about is that anyone would dare challenge you on what you perhaps believed would be a widely held opinion when it's far from that clear cut.
      - SwellJoe 12y ago
        HN does not allow one to downvote replies to your own comments. I do disagree with you, in every regard, but I don't downvote over disagreement (and could not possibly downvote you in this instance). Someone else must also disagree with you.
        nbevans 12y ago
        You don't make much sense. You disagree with me "in every regard" and yet you agree with Ken who made an almost identical point to my own. Microsoft defined the business model of the web browser market as it exists today. I.e. free, widely and easily available, and bundled with the OS. This has not changed. The court cannot prevent free market economics, but they tried to. Yes Microsoft made Netscape go bust. But Netscape were weak and short sighted. They were like squashing an ant.
  - jamespo 12y ago
    Yeah, who uses SSL/TLS

Microsoft has more than earned bias against them. You're free to form your own opinion, though.

Yes, I am biased against Microsoft. That bias is based on a history of what I believe is unethical behavior that hurt innovation on the Internet and in Open Source software. Others may not consider their past behavior unethical, or may believe in "forgive and forget" now that they seem to be playing fair, which is fine for those folks. I am not as ready to forget, even if I eventually find forgiveness. Regardless of what others think of Microsoft, I believe my disdain and mistrust for Microsoft is based on a reasonable understanding of historical facts, rather than some subjective vendetta. I've been a nerd for a long time. Microsoft has (until possibly very recently) never been a good citizen in the tech world.

nbevans 12y ago
Give over. Internet Explorer didn't hurt innovation at all. It was more innovative than Netscape by a country mile. IE was the first to pioneer CSS! And DHTML! Netscape pioneered, erm, cookies, I guess? There was no other web browser worth using other than IE or Netscape back in those wild west days of the Web. Yes there was a period of a year or two when Netscape entered the abyss and it took a while for a new competitor to IE to spring up. But that happened (Firefox) and shortly after Microsoft resumed development on IE too. You seem to have selective memory. IE brought A LOT of good to the Web. A LOT of good.
- SwellJoe 12y ago
  Courts in Europe and the United States disagree with you. And, while I'm willing to believe juries and judges can make mistakes, I have to say I don't think the courts did enough...and they went after Microsoft for many of the more minor problems with Microsoft's business. "You seem to have selective memory. IE brought A LOT of good to the Web. A LOT of good." From where I'm sitting you have a very imaginative memory. IE was better than the competition because it destroyed the competition using the very unethical (and illegal, according to courts in several nations) tactics I've already mentioned. Honestly, I'm surprised anyone on HN would have so little knowledge of the history of Microsoft and the web that you would interpret their stranglehold on the browser as a positive thing. I simply can't wrap my head around it, it's so absurd to me.
  - nbevans 12y ago
    Thanks for the down vote for disagreeing with your opinion. The courts took issue with bundling it with Windows. Not that it was not innovative. There was even a few articles in recent years suggesting the courts went too far over the "bundling" case; sighting comparisons to vendor lock-in all over the industry now not reaching the courts at all. Just one top hit cite: http://readwrite.com/2013/11/12/apple-maps-takes-off-cue-the-antitrust-lawsuit http://readwrite.com/2013/11/12/apple-maps-takes-off-cue-the... The whole bundling IE case was fundamentally stupid and run by lawyers and judges who had no understand of the technology industry, the web and the wild west stage the web was going through. Back then, it was all about enablement. Getting people just onto the web in the first place was hard. They had to buy a computer, a modem, sign up with an ISP, possibly upgrade their operating system, install a web browser etc. But in those days, installing a web browser meant you had to go buy a Magazine from a shop just to get the CD-ROM. Microsoft viewed this, rightly, as an impediment. So they bundled IE with their OS. A practice that is still common place today by every major operating system that exists including Windows, Linux, OSX, Android, iOS, WinPhone. Without IE bringing DHTML we would not have the foundations that made modern day JavaScript, SPA, "Ajax" applications today. How is that not fostering innovation? IE 1 to 6 were a technology showcase to show everybody else what the web _could_ be or become. That's one reason why, though they'll never admit it, Mozilla abandoned Mozilla Suite and started work on Firefox. "So little knowledge of the history of Microsoft and the web"? Er, what? I date back to having to when you had to install a TCP/IP stack manually in order to get onto the web. What you're actually surprised about is that anyone would dare challenge you on what you perhaps believed would be a widely held opinion when it's far from that clear cut.
    - SwellJoe 12y ago
      HN does not allow one to downvote replies to your own comments. I do disagree with you, in every regard, but I don't downvote over disagreement (and could not possibly downvote you in this instance). Someone else must also disagree with you.
      - nbevans 12y ago
        You don't make much sense. You disagree with me "in every regard" and yet you agree with Ken who made an almost identical point to my own. Microsoft defined the business model of the web browser market as it exists today. I.e. free, widely and easily available, and bundled with the OS. This has not changed. The court cannot prevent free market economics, but they tried to. Yes Microsoft made Netscape go bust. But Netscape were weak and short sighted. They were like squashing an ant.
- jamespo 12y ago
  Yeah, who uses SSL/TLS