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Please break it down for me? I'm clearly not seeing it (we often fail to see the failings in ourselves, it's just human), I for my part tried to clarify my sta

by iamdave 12y ago

Please break it down for me? I'm clearly not seeing it (we often fail to see the failings in ourselves, it's just human), I for my part tried to clarify my stance; repeating "false equivalency" doesn't help me understand your response any better.

ben0x539 12y ago
As far as I can tell, there's the gamergate people organizing the harassment of people, posting their victims' private addresses, sending them death threats and all kinds of abuse, bullying people into withdrawing from their online identities, all under a propaganda screen of fabricated pretenses and smear campaigns. Then there's the "feminist" crowd which wants that sort of thing to not happen, and also talk about videogames. Your way of putting it implies that these two are equivalent in being "unfortunate and problematic", which in my opinion is a severe misrepresentation of the situation.
- iamdave 12y ago
  Your way of putting it implies that these two are equivalent in being "unfortunate and problematic", which in my opinion is a severe misrepresentation of the situation. In your opinion then, what's a better way to present it? I'm trying to look at this as broadly as I possibly can without getting strung up in highlighting granular, "this instance" and "that instance" responses, effectively coming across as a 'single issue debater'.
  - ben0x539 12y ago
    It's a 4chan-style raid/social media harassment op. There's not much to it. It's what they do.
  - llamataboot 12y ago
    A better way to present it would be, "I don't agree with all the points that people identifying as feminists in these arguments are making, for example XYZ. However, I strongly condemn calls for violence against them and think that the violence and threats of violence discredits any argument the GamerGate people may be making and reinforces the fact that we live in a patriarchal society and a rape culture where violence against women is all too common and normalized. Arguments against the content of arguments and counter examples are fine and okay, however the word of someone claiming they personally are being marginalized and victimized should generally be given more weight than someone else claiming that that person isn't. We can have civil and even enthusiastic discussions about how sexism manifests itself in the videogame industry (or doesn't), but misogynist violence is never okay and de facto reinforces how big of a problem sexism is in tech culture, and the way that both covert and overt violence is used to silence women.
    - JoeAltmaier 12y ago
      Further: threats of violence used to silence anyone, are not anything like a valid argument form. They are the usual tool of a corrupt, authoritarian voice. The practice is to be condemned by all who support rational dialog.
    - iamdave 12y ago
      however the word of someone claiming they personally are being marginalized and victimized should generally be given more weight than someone else claiming that that person isn't. No it absolutely should not, and the applications that we've seen when this framework of thought is proof enough of what happens when we give the victim more legal weight than the accused. Title IX is a perfect example of this flawed implementation of "justice" to the point where the victims receive all the benefits of due process, but the accused does not. Taking the victim at their word is preposterous and absolutely and wholly contrary to the way our legal framework was designed, and ought to work: Quote: "OCR’s language implies that the rights of accused students at public colleges do not merit lengthy discussion and further suggests by negative implication that accused have any rights at all.57 The Letter also states that “[w]hen taking steps to separate the complainant and alleged perpetrator, a school should minimize the burden on the complainant, and thus should not, as a matter of course, remove complainants from classes or housing while allowing alleged perpetrators to remain.” In other words, alleged perpetrators should automatically suffer life-upending punishments like expulsion from their residences upon accusation because they are likely guilty. The writing on the wall from this treatment of due process rights is unmistakable: it implies, “oddly and ominously, that the statutory rights of the accuser trump the constitutional due-process [sic] rights of the accused.”" Source: "A HOSTILE ENVIRONMENT FOR STUDENT DEFENDANTS: TITLE IX AND SEXUAL ASSAULT ON COLLEGE CAMPUSES" (http://chaselaw.nku.edu/content/dam/chaselaw/docs/academics/lawreview/v40/nklr_v40n1_pp049-092.pdf http://chaselaw.nku.edu/content/dam/chaselaw/docs/academics/...) p.61 pp.2 - p62 pp.1 You can absolutely have a civil discourse on how sexism manifests itself in the video game industry and others, and misogynist violence is absolutely never okay. But once we get to the point where conversations depend on giving one person more credence than another simply because of their status, or role in the affair, we're entering very dangerous waters. One such example of the treacherous possibilities comes from the events of October 2012 at Ohio University where two students publicly engaged in lewd acts, photographs showed the female participant smiling, engaging and interacting with the male participant, and still cried rape to the detriment of the male participant even when local law enforcement could not find evidence to indict; Source: http://www.mindingthecampus.com/2013/11/is_this_a_campus_rape_well_no/ http://www.mindingthecampus.com/2013/11/is_this_a_campus_rap... No. No we do NOT give the accuser "more weight".
- anonymousab 12y ago
  That "feminist crowd" is just as guilty of harassment, doxxing and threats. Like mailing syringes filled with unknown chemicals. Or threatening ten year old "comedians" with "a shanking". The fact is that you cannot attribute such things to the majority for any side in such matters. It's intellectually dishonest.

by iamdave 12y ago

ben0x539 12y ago

As far as I can tell, there's the gamergate people organizing the harassment of people, posting their victims' private addresses, sending them death threats and all kinds of abuse, bullying people into withdrawing from their online identities, all under a propaganda screen of fabricated pretenses and smear campaigns. Then there's the "feminist" crowd which wants that sort of thing to not happen, and also talk about videogames. Your way of putting it implies that these two are equivalent in being "unfortunate and problematic", which in my opinion is a severe misrepresentation of the situation.

iamdave 12y ago
Your way of putting it implies that these two are equivalent in being "unfortunate and problematic", which in my opinion is a severe misrepresentation of the situation. In your opinion then, what's a better way to present it? I'm trying to look at this as broadly as I possibly can without getting strung up in highlighting granular, "this instance" and "that instance" responses, effectively coming across as a 'single issue debater'.
- ben0x539 12y ago
  It's a 4chan-style raid/social media harassment op. There's not much to it. It's what they do.
- llamataboot 12y ago
  A better way to present it would be, "I don't agree with all the points that people identifying as feminists in these arguments are making, for example XYZ. However, I strongly condemn calls for violence against them and think that the violence and threats of violence discredits any argument the GamerGate people may be making and reinforces the fact that we live in a patriarchal society and a rape culture where violence against women is all too common and normalized. Arguments against the content of arguments and counter examples are fine and okay, however the word of someone claiming they personally are being marginalized and victimized should generally be given more weight than someone else claiming that that person isn't. We can have civil and even enthusiastic discussions about how sexism manifests itself in the videogame industry (or doesn't), but misogynist violence is never okay and de facto reinforces how big of a problem sexism is in tech culture, and the way that both covert and overt violence is used to silence women.
  - JoeAltmaier 12y ago
    Further: threats of violence used to silence anyone, are not anything like a valid argument form. They are the usual tool of a corrupt, authoritarian voice. The practice is to be condemned by all who support rational dialog.
  - iamdave 12y ago
    however the word of someone claiming they personally are being marginalized and victimized should generally be given more weight than someone else claiming that that person isn't. No it absolutely should not, and the applications that we've seen when this framework of thought is proof enough of what happens when we give the victim more legal weight than the accused. Title IX is a perfect example of this flawed implementation of "justice" to the point where the victims receive all the benefits of due process, but the accused does not. Taking the victim at their word is preposterous and absolutely and wholly contrary to the way our legal framework was designed, and ought to work: Quote: "OCR’s language implies that the rights of accused students at public colleges do not merit lengthy discussion and further suggests by negative implication that accused have any rights at all.57 The Letter also states that “[w]hen taking steps to separate the complainant and alleged perpetrator, a school should minimize the burden on the complainant, and thus should not, as a matter of course, remove complainants from classes or housing while allowing alleged perpetrators to remain.” In other words, alleged perpetrators should automatically suffer life-upending punishments like expulsion from their residences upon accusation because they are likely guilty. The writing on the wall from this treatment of due process rights is unmistakable: it implies, “oddly and ominously, that the statutory rights of the accuser trump the constitutional due-process [sic] rights of the accused.”" Source: "A HOSTILE ENVIRONMENT FOR STUDENT DEFENDANTS: TITLE IX AND SEXUAL ASSAULT ON COLLEGE CAMPUSES" (http://chaselaw.nku.edu/content/dam/chaselaw/docs/academics/lawreview/v40/nklr_v40n1_pp049-092.pdf http://chaselaw.nku.edu/content/dam/chaselaw/docs/academics/...) p.61 pp.2 - p62 pp.1 You can absolutely have a civil discourse on how sexism manifests itself in the video game industry and others, and misogynist violence is absolutely never okay. But once we get to the point where conversations depend on giving one person more credence than another simply because of their status, or role in the affair, we're entering very dangerous waters. One such example of the treacherous possibilities comes from the events of October 2012 at Ohio University where two students publicly engaged in lewd acts, photographs showed the female participant smiling, engaging and interacting with the male participant, and still cried rape to the detriment of the male participant even when local law enforcement could not find evidence to indict; Source: http://www.mindingthecampus.com/2013/11/is_this_a_campus_rape_well_no/ http://www.mindingthecampus.com/2013/11/is_this_a_campus_rap... No. No we do NOT give the accuser "more weight".
anonymousab 12y ago
That "feminist crowd" is just as guilty of harassment, doxxing and threats. Like mailing syringes filled with unknown chemicals. Or threatening ten year old "comedians" with "a shanking". The fact is that you cannot attribute such things to the majority for any side in such matters. It's intellectually dishonest.