3 ms·

let's ask the peope receiving death threats to sit down with their abusers and find a compromise" truth-is-in-the-middle thing. Except I never said that. I ne

by iamdave 12y ago

let's ask the peope receiving death threats to sit down with their abusers and find a compromise" truth-is-in-the-middle thing. Except I never said that. I never insinuated that, if you think that's the case, then it appears you're trying to force your interpretations into my statements, and that's not cool. Instead, what I've asserted repeatedly is this: 1) Sexism in gaming, tech and other industries needs to be addressed. Absolutely and positively. 2) Many who carry the banner of "Feminist" and many who carry the banner "Gamer" have taken unfortunate and problematic stances, as well as have made unfortunate and problematic statements to get "their" side more validity to the point where taking a side either way carries many severe consequences in the interest of moving a conversation forward. 3) Instead of simply jumping to one side because of how the other side reacts, I personally have decided to abstain from participating further until I see an opportunity where I personally feel comfortable participating and not be accused of being sexist/misogynist/whateverist or otherwise chided for not expressing myself in absolute support. Is that a little less ambiguous?

ben0x539 12y ago
I still think 2) is one hell of a false equivalency, ymmv.
- iamdave 12y ago
  Please break it down for me? I'm clearly not seeing it (we often fail to see the failings in ourselves, it's just human), I for my part tried to clarify my stance; repeating "false equivalency" doesn't help me understand your response any better.
  - ben0x539 12y ago
    As far as I can tell, there's the gamergate people organizing the harassment of people, posting their victims' private addresses, sending them death threats and all kinds of abuse, bullying people into withdrawing from their online identities, all under a propaganda screen of fabricated pretenses and smear campaigns. Then there's the "feminist" crowd which wants that sort of thing to not happen, and also talk about videogames. Your way of putting it implies that these two are equivalent in being "unfortunate and problematic", which in my opinion is a severe misrepresentation of the situation.
    - iamdave 12y ago
      Your way of putting it implies that these two are equivalent in being "unfortunate and problematic", which in my opinion is a severe misrepresentation of the situation. In your opinion then, what's a better way to present it? I'm trying to look at this as broadly as I possibly can without getting strung up in highlighting granular, "this instance" and "that instance" responses, effectively coming across as a 'single issue debater'.
      - ben0x539 12y ago
        It's a 4chan-style raid/social media harassment op. There's not much to it. It's what they do.
      - llamataboot 12y ago
        A better way to present it would be, "I don't agree with all the points that people identifying as feminists in these arguments are making, for example XYZ. However, I strongly condemn calls for violence against them and think that the violence and threats of violence discredits any argument the GamerGate people may be making and reinforces the fact that we live in a patriarchal society and a rape culture where violence against women is all too common and normalized. Arguments against the content of arguments and counter examples are fine and okay, however the word of someone claiming they personally are being marginalized and victimized should generally be given more weight than someone else claiming that that person isn't. We can have civil and even enthusiastic discussions about how sexism manifests itself in the videogame industry (or doesn't), but misogynist violence is never okay and de facto reinforces how big of a problem sexism is in tech culture, and the way that both covert and overt violence is used to silence women.
        JoeAltmaier 12y ago
        Further: threats of violence used to silence anyone, are not anything like a valid argument form. They are the usual tool of a corrupt, authoritarian voice. The practice is to be condemned by all who support rational dialog.
        12y ago

by iamdave 12y ago

ben0x539 12y ago

I still think 2) is one hell of a false equivalency, ymmv.

iamdave 12y ago
Please break it down for me? I'm clearly not seeing it (we often fail to see the failings in ourselves, it's just human), I for my part tried to clarify my stance; repeating "false equivalency" doesn't help me understand your response any better.
- ben0x539 12y ago
  As far as I can tell, there's the gamergate people organizing the harassment of people, posting their victims' private addresses, sending them death threats and all kinds of abuse, bullying people into withdrawing from their online identities, all under a propaganda screen of fabricated pretenses and smear campaigns. Then there's the "feminist" crowd which wants that sort of thing to not happen, and also talk about videogames. Your way of putting it implies that these two are equivalent in being "unfortunate and problematic", which in my opinion is a severe misrepresentation of the situation.
  - iamdave 12y ago
    Your way of putting it implies that these two are equivalent in being "unfortunate and problematic", which in my opinion is a severe misrepresentation of the situation. In your opinion then, what's a better way to present it? I'm trying to look at this as broadly as I possibly can without getting strung up in highlighting granular, "this instance" and "that instance" responses, effectively coming across as a 'single issue debater'.
    - ben0x539 12y ago
      It's a 4chan-style raid/social media harassment op. There's not much to it. It's what they do.
    - llamataboot 12y ago
      A better way to present it would be, "I don't agree with all the points that people identifying as feminists in these arguments are making, for example XYZ. However, I strongly condemn calls for violence against them and think that the violence and threats of violence discredits any argument the GamerGate people may be making and reinforces the fact that we live in a patriarchal society and a rape culture where violence against women is all too common and normalized. Arguments against the content of arguments and counter examples are fine and okay, however the word of someone claiming they personally are being marginalized and victimized should generally be given more weight than someone else claiming that that person isn't. We can have civil and even enthusiastic discussions about how sexism manifests itself in the videogame industry (or doesn't), but misogynist violence is never okay and de facto reinforces how big of a problem sexism is in tech culture, and the way that both covert and overt violence is used to silence women.
      - JoeAltmaier 12y ago
        Further: threats of violence used to silence anyone, are not anything like a valid argument form. They are the usual tool of a corrupt, authoritarian voice. The practice is to be condemned by all who support rational dialog.
      - 12y ago