5 ms·

> I mean, does anyone actually notice the difference? Absolutely.

by the_mitsuhiko 12y ago

StavrosK 12y ago
Really? Your eye can resolve the difference between 300 ppi and 500 ppi at arm's length? Also, don't be a stranger.
- genericuser 12y ago
  You use your phone at arms length? I am usually holding mine at like 6 inches to 1 foot from my face. I could very much tell the difference between the 318 ppi of the nexus 4 vs the 445 ppi of the nexus 5 with my usage patterns. I am skeptical that I would notice further improvements though.
  - StavrosK 12y ago
    Huh. Yeah, I usually have it about two feet away. Not arm outstretched, like my dad, but only slightly bent.
    - IkmoIkmo 12y ago
      > Not arm outstretched, like my dad LOL, didn't know my brother was on hackernews, too. What's up man!
  - dingaling 12y ago
    > I am usually holding mine at like 6 inches to 1 foot from my face Question: how do you type / swype with your device so close? I've just tried and my focus kept shifting from the back of my typing hand to the screen and back, very tiring.
    - genericuser 12y ago
      I scroll/swipe left or right with my thumb, most of my use is reading comics or watching videos, video being where the resolution most matters doesn't really require much interaction at all. As far as typing I hardly look at the screen then and ppi don't really matter then. If I am just checking my notifications it barely comes out of my pocket. But when we are in a discussion of ppi being useful, I assume we are talking about the uses where you are actually looking at the screen. Edit: Just realized that when I type longer messages or emails I tend to hold it 2 handed landscape and hold it pretty close(around 1 foot away) and tap it out with my thumbs because I find it more accurate. So I guess that is how one would type with it that close.
  - r00fus 12y ago
    6 inches is extremely close - even uncomfortable for me with a 3.5" iPhone 4S. Are you sure your distance is accurate? Perhaps screen brightness also impacts this - do you run f.lux?
    - genericuser 12y ago
      I do not run flux, 6 inches seems accurate as if i stick out my thumbs they touch my glasses. Basically when I watch a video I want the screen to take up my entire field of view.
- mitchty 12y ago
  Is it even physically possible to notice the difference in that ppi at that range? I thought human eyes didn't have the capability. I think everyone saying "yes I see a difference" should be doing some double blind validation. I've had people tell me they could tell the difference between 720p and 1080p at 20 feet. That is physically impossible for the human eye.
  - personZ 12y ago
    Most people don't watch their set from 20 feet away. And position is seldom static -- I tend to stand during football games, for instance, and move closer during intense plays or close-call replays. The same thing happens with smartphones, where people pull it in tight to look at fine detail, and a very high DPI allows you to do that with endless zooming/unzooming.
  - boyaka 12y ago
    Screen size!!! TVs are getting bigger. The factors involved are: - PPI/resolution - Media quality/resolution - Distance - Panel quality/size
  - kllrnohj 12y ago
    The human eye does not have a simple resolution like that, and yes it's VERY possible to notice PPI differences in the 300-600 dpi range, especially for certain forms of content. See: http://www.anandtech.com/show/7743/the-pixel-density-race-and-its-technical-merits http://www.anandtech.com/show/7743/the-pixel-density-race-an...
    - mitchty 12y ago
      At what distance though, without that your statement isn't helpful. We all know the human doesn't have resolution like a screen but if we ignore the optics of our eyes I think thats pointless. There are people saying they use their phones 6" away from their face. Ok, but that is not at all how anyone I know uses their phones at least distance wise. My example of tv screen and resolution is geared more to this: http://carltonbale.com/1080p-does-matter/ http://carltonbale.com/1080p-does-matter/ Take an 80" 4k tv, you need to sit about 5 feet for an average human to see the difference. I'd like to see equivalents for phones and dpi/screen size and distance.
- Casseres 12y ago
  At arm's length, no. I don't know many people who stretch out their arms completely to use a cellphone or a tablet. Usually people that I see (myself included, I have a Nexus 5 and a Nexus 7), hold our devices at about half an arm's length. At that distance, the pixels are discernible, especially if one has better than 20/20 vision.
- avree 12y ago
  At 4 inches, the maximum the human eye needs is 2190 ppi/dpi. http://wolfcrow.com/blog/notes-by-dr-optoglass-the-resolution-of-the-human-eye/ http://wolfcrow.com/blog/notes-by-dr-optoglass-the-resolutio...
  - StavrosK 12y ago
    Thanks, that link says 300 ppi (magazines) and 720 ppi (fine arts prints). Very informative!
  - IkmoIkmo 12y ago
    The link seems to confirm the 400+ range is getting useless fast for anyone who isn't a baby holding the screen to their face.
    - 3A2D50 12y ago
      The link provided by avree says, "...But the legally accepted norm of 20/20 vision only asks for 876 ppi/dpi at 4 inches!" A baby's vision is around 20/800 [1] (extremely poor). [1] http://optometry.osu.edu/research/VisualPerceptionLaboratory/pdfs/0002-9394-245-253.pdf http://optometry.osu.edu/research/VisualPerceptionLaboratory...
- mkozlows 12y ago
  It is easy for me to see jaggies on a 300 dpi device (the N7 and N10 are both in that ballpark, as was my old 720p phone). You can too -- go to a browser, and type "www" and then look at those letters. The jaggies are just what you'd expect from 300 dpi. On the Nexus 5 (440 dpi), I can't see them anymore. Resolutions above this seem unnecessary to me -- but for the N6, 1080p would mean 360 dpi, so that might be sub-perfect. 1440p will be perfect for sure.
  - StavrosK 12y ago
    Hmm, weird. I was going by my HTC One M7, which has a 1080p screen, but its ppi is 460ish, and the Nexus 6 is 493. I didn't realize an extra inch would require 1440p to have roughly the same resolution. I can't see jaggies anywhere at this resolution, though.
  - IkmoIkmo 12y ago
    > On the Nexus 5 (440 dpi), I can't see them anymore. I can't see jaggedness on my iphone 4 at 'www' in the browser either, and that's at 326 PPI. But fair enough. The low 400s range seems like a solid enough improvement. I just don't get the upper 400s like the Nexus 6's 493, and perhaps the 500 range next year. Obviously there's a bit of extra battery and a bit of extra processing hardware required for that, however small, I'd want to hang on to it beyond the low 400s PPI range.
- lekanwang 12y ago
  Human visual acuity of 20/20 is being able to discern 1 arcmin in bright light. With trig, you get that, if you're holding the screen a foot away, that amounts to 0.000349 inches, which is 1432 dpi. If you're holding the device 2 ft away, it's 716 dpi. And against your face at 6 inches, you get 2865 dpi.
  - kllrnohj 12y ago
    The average human has better than 20/20 vision. The average is actually closer to 20/16 to 20/12, and doesn't drop to 20/20 until 60 years of age.
    - boyaka 12y ago
      And glasses/contacts bring the humans with below average vision into the above average / perfect range.
    - jo_ 12y ago
      Could I impose for a citation for this? A quick check indicates that in the industrialized world, between 50% and 70% of individuals require corrective lenses.[1][2] That seems to indicate that the _average_ human does NOT have 20/20. It's possible in developing countries less than half the population does not need vision correction, but I'm not terribly convinced. [1] National Centre for Social Research and University College London. Department of Epidemiology and Public Health, Health Survey for England, 2001. 2nd Edition. Colchester, Essex: UK Data Archive, June 2004. SN: 4628. [2] Global Eyeglasses Market (2005). Eyeglasses MCP-2532: A global strategic business report. Global Industry Analyst, April 2008.
      - dozenal 12y ago
        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visual_acuity#Normal_vision http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visual_acuity#Normal_vision
      - XorNot 12y ago
        The average humans vision is just fine st distances under a foot. Vision defects do not scale linearly with distance.
asdflkjasdflkj 12y ago
The pixels become obvious under the magnification of Cardboard.
sytelus 12y ago
"Noticing" is one thing and being proportionally useful is quite another. After 350dpi, the marginal utility of further increase has diminishing returns. Very likely apps you are using isn't even taking advantage of that resolution. Even if it does, you are very likely not going to notice the difference when lighting and your environment itself produces so much noise.

> I mean, does anyone actually notice the difference? Absolutely.

StavrosK 12y ago

Really? Your eye can resolve the difference between 300 ppi and 500 ppi at arm's length? Also, don't be a stranger.

genericuser 12y ago
You use your phone at arms length? I am usually holding mine at like 6 inches to 1 foot from my face. I could very much tell the difference between the 318 ppi of the nexus 4 vs the 445 ppi of the nexus 5 with my usage patterns. I am skeptical that I would notice further improvements though.
- StavrosK 12y ago
  Huh. Yeah, I usually have it about two feet away. Not arm outstretched, like my dad, but only slightly bent.
  - IkmoIkmo 12y ago
    > Not arm outstretched, like my dad LOL, didn't know my brother was on hackernews, too. What's up man!
- dingaling 12y ago
  > I am usually holding mine at like 6 inches to 1 foot from my face Question: how do you type / swype with your device so close? I've just tried and my focus kept shifting from the back of my typing hand to the screen and back, very tiring.
  - genericuser 12y ago
    I scroll/swipe left or right with my thumb, most of my use is reading comics or watching videos, video being where the resolution most matters doesn't really require much interaction at all. As far as typing I hardly look at the screen then and ppi don't really matter then. If I am just checking my notifications it barely comes out of my pocket. But when we are in a discussion of ppi being useful, I assume we are talking about the uses where you are actually looking at the screen. Edit: Just realized that when I type longer messages or emails I tend to hold it 2 handed landscape and hold it pretty close(around 1 foot away) and tap it out with my thumbs because I find it more accurate. So I guess that is how one would type with it that close.
- r00fus 12y ago
  6 inches is extremely close - even uncomfortable for me with a 3.5" iPhone 4S. Are you sure your distance is accurate? Perhaps screen brightness also impacts this - do you run f.lux?
  - genericuser 12y ago
    I do not run flux, 6 inches seems accurate as if i stick out my thumbs they touch my glasses. Basically when I watch a video I want the screen to take up my entire field of view.
mitchty 12y ago
Is it even physically possible to notice the difference in that ppi at that range? I thought human eyes didn't have the capability. I think everyone saying "yes I see a difference" should be doing some double blind validation. I've had people tell me they could tell the difference between 720p and 1080p at 20 feet. That is physically impossible for the human eye.
- personZ 12y ago
  Most people don't watch their set from 20 feet away. And position is seldom static -- I tend to stand during football games, for instance, and move closer during intense plays or close-call replays. The same thing happens with smartphones, where people pull it in tight to look at fine detail, and a very high DPI allows you to do that with endless zooming/unzooming.
- boyaka 12y ago
  Screen size!!! TVs are getting bigger. The factors involved are: - PPI/resolution - Media quality/resolution - Distance - Panel quality/size
- kllrnohj 12y ago
  The human eye does not have a simple resolution like that, and yes it's VERY possible to notice PPI differences in the 300-600 dpi range, especially for certain forms of content. See: http://www.anandtech.com/show/7743/the-pixel-density-race-and-its-technical-merits http://www.anandtech.com/show/7743/the-pixel-density-race-an...
  - mitchty 12y ago
    At what distance though, without that your statement isn't helpful. We all know the human doesn't have resolution like a screen but if we ignore the optics of our eyes I think thats pointless. There are people saying they use their phones 6" away from their face. Ok, but that is not at all how anyone I know uses their phones at least distance wise. My example of tv screen and resolution is geared more to this: http://carltonbale.com/1080p-does-matter/ http://carltonbale.com/1080p-does-matter/ Take an 80" 4k tv, you need to sit about 5 feet for an average human to see the difference. I'd like to see equivalents for phones and dpi/screen size and distance.
Casseres 12y ago
At arm's length, no. I don't know many people who stretch out their arms completely to use a cellphone or a tablet. Usually people that I see (myself included, I have a Nexus 5 and a Nexus 7), hold our devices at about half an arm's length. At that distance, the pixels are discernible, especially if one has better than 20/20 vision.
avree 12y ago
At 4 inches, the maximum the human eye needs is 2190 ppi/dpi. http://wolfcrow.com/blog/notes-by-dr-optoglass-the-resolution-of-the-human-eye/ http://wolfcrow.com/blog/notes-by-dr-optoglass-the-resolutio...
- StavrosK 12y ago
  Thanks, that link says 300 ppi (magazines) and 720 ppi (fine arts prints). Very informative!
- IkmoIkmo 12y ago
  The link seems to confirm the 400+ range is getting useless fast for anyone who isn't a baby holding the screen to their face.
  - 3A2D50 12y ago
    The link provided by avree says, "...But the legally accepted norm of 20/20 vision only asks for 876 ppi/dpi at 4 inches!" A baby's vision is around 20/800 [1] (extremely poor). [1] http://optometry.osu.edu/research/VisualPerceptionLaboratory/pdfs/0002-9394-245-253.pdf http://optometry.osu.edu/research/VisualPerceptionLaboratory...
mkozlows 12y ago
It is easy for me to see jaggies on a 300 dpi device (the N7 and N10 are both in that ballpark, as was my old 720p phone). You can too -- go to a browser, and type "www" and then look at those letters. The jaggies are just what you'd expect from 300 dpi. On the Nexus 5 (440 dpi), I can't see them anymore. Resolutions above this seem unnecessary to me -- but for the N6, 1080p would mean 360 dpi, so that might be sub-perfect. 1440p will be perfect for sure.
- StavrosK 12y ago
  Hmm, weird. I was going by my HTC One M7, which has a 1080p screen, but its ppi is 460ish, and the Nexus 6 is 493. I didn't realize an extra inch would require 1440p to have roughly the same resolution. I can't see jaggies anywhere at this resolution, though.
- IkmoIkmo 12y ago
  > On the Nexus 5 (440 dpi), I can't see them anymore. I can't see jaggedness on my iphone 4 at 'www' in the browser either, and that's at 326 PPI. But fair enough. The low 400s range seems like a solid enough improvement. I just don't get the upper 400s like the Nexus 6's 493, and perhaps the 500 range next year. Obviously there's a bit of extra battery and a bit of extra processing hardware required for that, however small, I'd want to hang on to it beyond the low 400s PPI range.
lekanwang 12y ago
Human visual acuity of 20/20 is being able to discern 1 arcmin in bright light. With trig, you get that, if you're holding the screen a foot away, that amounts to 0.000349 inches, which is 1432 dpi. If you're holding the device 2 ft away, it's 716 dpi. And against your face at 6 inches, you get 2865 dpi.
- kllrnohj 12y ago
  The average human has better than 20/20 vision. The average is actually closer to 20/16 to 20/12, and doesn't drop to 20/20 until 60 years of age.
  - boyaka 12y ago
    And glasses/contacts bring the humans with below average vision into the above average / perfect range.
  - jo_ 12y ago
    Could I impose for a citation for this? A quick check indicates that in the industrialized world, between 50% and 70% of individuals require corrective lenses.[1][2] That seems to indicate that the _average_ human does NOT have 20/20. It's possible in developing countries less than half the population does not need vision correction, but I'm not terribly convinced. [1] National Centre for Social Research and University College London. Department of Epidemiology and Public Health, Health Survey for England, 2001. 2nd Edition. Colchester, Essex: UK Data Archive, June 2004. SN: 4628. [2] Global Eyeglasses Market (2005). Eyeglasses MCP-2532: A global strategic business report. Global Industry Analyst, April 2008.
    - dozenal 12y ago
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visual_acuity#Normal_vision http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visual_acuity#Normal_vision
    - XorNot 12y ago
      The average humans vision is just fine st distances under a foot. Vision defects do not scale linearly with distance.

asdflkjasdflkj 12y ago

The pixels become obvious under the magnification of Cardboard.

sytelus 12y ago

"Noticing" is one thing and being proportionally useful is quite another. After 350dpi, the marginal utility of further increase has diminishing returns. Very likely apps you are using isn't even taking advantage of that resolution. Even if it does, you are very likely not going to notice the difference when lighting and your environment itself produces so much noise.