5 ms·

The 'Silent' Aircraft Initiative

15 points by alexandros 17y ago

anigbrowl 17y ago
Last update in 2006 :-( Then again, you could kind of guess this was doomed to failure for commercial passenger use: no windows. I doubt we'll see more than incremental improvements in aircraft design for another decade, especially not from Europe; everyone loved the look of the Concord but it never made money. Too bad, because quieter aircraft are a Good Thing. edit: thanks for that update Boris, good to hear.
- borism 17y ago
  last news is that in January 2009 NASA joined with funding as part of it's own studies http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/generic/story_generic.jsp?channel=awst&id=news/aw020209p1.xml&headline=NASA%20Backs%20Hybrid%20Wing/Body%20to%20Meet%20Environmental%20Goals http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/generic/story_generic.jsp?cha... so I wouldn't write this off yet. quote from the article: "NASA has not consulted the airlines to gauge their interest in the hybrid wing/body (HWB) - its generic term for the BWB. Instead its research is driven by internal studies that indicate the unconventional configuration is the only way to meet the aggressive environmental targets it has set for "N+2 generation" aircraft to be available around 2020."
  - billswift 17y ago
    Considering how much NASA has actually accomplished in the last several decades, that is probably the kiss of death for any actual plane.
    - borism 17y ago
      What's actual accomplishment for you? Winning a manned race to the moon and building first reusable space plane? There's enormous amount of research being done there that's not as visible, but significantly more important. NASA won't be building planes anyway. What's also nice about this is that it's mostly open source. Just take it and build your own startup on top of it!
ardit33 17y ago
1. no windows. Did they account for the extra drag once the windows get added? 2. A very wide-body plane like that, is problematic. You are going to have very wide rows (like 12-16 abreast), and the people that are in the rear-sides, will experience very unpleasant "roller coaster" effects when the plane does sharp turns, as they are so far from the central axis.
- Dove 17y ago
  Sharp turns? In commercial aviation?
  - borism 17y ago
    yeah. no sharp turns or sharp pitch ups (see other poster's concern about engines not getting enough air) for this bird. fine by me for an airliner. How would windows add drag I don't get? Actually you can be a lot more creative with windows on this thing.
tlb 17y ago
There are good reasons why conventional aircraft have their engines on separate pods. They get clean airflow, whereas in the Silent design a wing/body stall would also disrupt air intake to the engines giving a sudden loss in thrust just when you need it most. Not to mention the extra difficulty of maintenance and inspection. And the fact that chunks of ice separating from the body fly right into the turbine. I could live without windows. Have a few cameras connected to the LCD screens in the seats. Should save a lot of weight and drag.
- borism 17y ago
  Exactly. Even nowadays how many people have window seat on a widebody? some 20-25%. AVOD and external cameras can do wonders, I really like setup on Emirates. Other problems are solvable too (aircraft is not meant to accumulate ice, you know ;) and airlines will buy anyway if fuel savings are that good in real life.
  - cwan 17y ago
    I suspect it'd still be a tough sell for aircraft manufacturers - especially for long range flights. I do 14-16 hour flights frequently and although I might not be seated next to a window knowing that they're there is sort of nice when I get up to stretch legs. Otherwise you're asking people get into basically a cave for that period of time which might be claustrophobic to even those who don't normally get claustrophobic. Another issue might be the amount of sea sickness you might encounter given that at least having a horizon line that people can focus on helps. On the other hand... on a 14-16 hour flight if I save 50% or in the case of this like 20% to have windows versus not having windows even when not seated next to one, I might suck it up. As a frequent traveller, I much prefer to get an aisle seat anyway.
    - borism 17y ago
      So you like both aisle and window? Well, on this thing I guess you may get both, unlike on conventional designs!
      - 17y ago
akamaka 17y ago
These guys aren't the only ones working on this. Here's a couple of links to some interesting concepts Boeing is exploring: 2006 article, with more detail: http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/businesstechnology/2002973147_boeingconcepts05.html http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/businesstechnology/200... 2009 article, newer but with less detail: http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/runway-girl/2009/03/pic-boeing-reveals-ideas-for-f.html http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/runway-girl/2009/03/pic-bo... The Boeing low-noise concept seems to already incorporate the same basic ideas: engines on top, to deflect noise away from the ground, and redesigned wings (presumably for a steeper final approach).
- kevbin 17y ago
  The SAI concept looks a lot like some of the Boeing Sonic Cruiser concepts from a few years back, like this one: http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w238/Christopher_Cvel/11459402906rM971.jpg http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w238/Christopher_Cvel/114... The SAI and early cruiser concepts both have winglets, but the later cruiser concepts have raked wingtips, like the 767-400: http://www.boeing.com/commercial/aeromagazine/aero_17/wingtip_devices.html http://www.boeing.com/commercial/aeromagazine/aero_17/wingti... I'd love to see how a floor-plan like this works in practice: http://www.aviationexplorer.com/pics/future_airliners6.jpg http://www.aviationexplorer.com/pics/future_airliners6.jpg Seems like the airlines and airport authorities would need to come-up with some better queueing/loading processes.
  - streety 17y ago
    Would this really be an issue? In my experience the biggest hold up is people in the aisles putting their bags in the overhead lockers and edging into their seats while you're trying to get past to your seat. In the image you linked to the although there are more aisles each is shorter so there would be fewer people in front of you blocking your aisle.
mhb 17y ago
Maybe they could do leaf blowers next.

15 points by alexandros 17y ago

Last update in 2006 :-( Then again, you could kind of guess this was doomed to failure for commercial passenger use: no windows. I doubt we'll see more than incremental improvements in aircraft design for another decade, especially not from Europe; everyone loved the look of the Concord but it never made money. Too bad, because quieter aircraft are a Good Thing. edit: thanks for that update Boris, good to hear.

borism 17y ago
last news is that in January 2009 NASA joined with funding as part of it's own studies http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/generic/story_generic.jsp?channel=awst&id=news/aw020209p1.xml&headline=NASA%20Backs%20Hybrid%20Wing/Body%20to%20Meet%20Environmental%20Goals http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/generic/story_generic.jsp?cha... so I wouldn't write this off yet. quote from the article: "NASA has not consulted the airlines to gauge their interest in the hybrid wing/body (HWB) - its generic term for the BWB. Instead its research is driven by internal studies that indicate the unconventional configuration is the only way to meet the aggressive environmental targets it has set for "N+2 generation" aircraft to be available around 2020."
- billswift 17y ago
  Considering how much NASA has actually accomplished in the last several decades, that is probably the kiss of death for any actual plane.
  - borism 17y ago
    What's actual accomplishment for you? Winning a manned race to the moon and building first reusable space plane? There's enormous amount of research being done there that's not as visible, but significantly more important. NASA won't be building planes anyway. What's also nice about this is that it's mostly open source. Just take it and build your own startup on top of it!

ardit33 17y ago

1. no windows. Did they account for the extra drag once the windows get added? 2. A very wide-body plane like that, is problematic. You are going to have very wide rows (like 12-16 abreast), and the people that are in the rear-sides, will experience very unpleasant "roller coaster" effects when the plane does sharp turns, as they are so far from the central axis.

Dove 17y ago
Sharp turns? In commercial aviation?
- borism 17y ago
  yeah. no sharp turns or sharp pitch ups (see other poster's concern about engines not getting enough air) for this bird. fine by me for an airliner. How would windows add drag I don't get? Actually you can be a lot more creative with windows on this thing.

tlb 17y ago

There are good reasons why conventional aircraft have their engines on separate pods. They get clean airflow, whereas in the Silent design a wing/body stall would also disrupt air intake to the engines giving a sudden loss in thrust just when you need it most. Not to mention the extra difficulty of maintenance and inspection. And the fact that chunks of ice separating from the body fly right into the turbine. I could live without windows. Have a few cameras connected to the LCD screens in the seats. Should save a lot of weight and drag.

borism 17y ago
Exactly. Even nowadays how many people have window seat on a widebody? some 20-25%. AVOD and external cameras can do wonders, I really like setup on Emirates. Other problems are solvable too (aircraft is not meant to accumulate ice, you know ;) and airlines will buy anyway if fuel savings are that good in real life.
- cwan 17y ago
  I suspect it'd still be a tough sell for aircraft manufacturers - especially for long range flights. I do 14-16 hour flights frequently and although I might not be seated next to a window knowing that they're there is sort of nice when I get up to stretch legs. Otherwise you're asking people get into basically a cave for that period of time which might be claustrophobic to even those who don't normally get claustrophobic. Another issue might be the amount of sea sickness you might encounter given that at least having a horizon line that people can focus on helps. On the other hand... on a 14-16 hour flight if I save 50% or in the case of this like 20% to have windows versus not having windows even when not seated next to one, I might suck it up. As a frequent traveller, I much prefer to get an aisle seat anyway.
  - borism 17y ago
    So you like both aisle and window? Well, on this thing I guess you may get both, unlike on conventional designs!
    - 17y ago

akamaka 17y ago

These guys aren't the only ones working on this. Here's a couple of links to some interesting concepts Boeing is exploring: 2006 article, with more detail: http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/businesstechnology/2002973147_boeingconcepts05.html http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/businesstechnology/200... 2009 article, newer but with less detail: http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/runway-girl/2009/03/pic-boeing-reveals-ideas-for-f.html http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/runway-girl/2009/03/pic-bo... The Boeing low-noise concept seems to already incorporate the same basic ideas: engines on top, to deflect noise away from the ground, and redesigned wings (presumably for a steeper final approach).

kevbin 17y ago
The SAI concept looks a lot like some of the Boeing Sonic Cruiser concepts from a few years back, like this one: http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w238/Christopher_Cvel/11459402906rM971.jpg http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w238/Christopher_Cvel/114... The SAI and early cruiser concepts both have winglets, but the later cruiser concepts have raked wingtips, like the 767-400: http://www.boeing.com/commercial/aeromagazine/aero_17/wingtip_devices.html http://www.boeing.com/commercial/aeromagazine/aero_17/wingti... I'd love to see how a floor-plan like this works in practice: http://www.aviationexplorer.com/pics/future_airliners6.jpg http://www.aviationexplorer.com/pics/future_airliners6.jpg Seems like the airlines and airport authorities would need to come-up with some better queueing/loading processes.
- streety 17y ago
  Would this really be an issue? In my experience the biggest hold up is people in the aisles putting their bags in the overhead lockers and edging into their seats while you're trying to get past to your seat. In the image you linked to the although there are more aisles each is shorter so there would be fewer people in front of you blocking your aisle.

mhb 17y ago

Maybe they could do leaf blowers next.