10 ms·

This is hands down the best news I have heard in the MS development space in a long long time. We have 3 apps over 32 servers and 5 environments, and operation

This is hands down the best news I have heard in the MS development space in a long long time. We have 3 apps over 32 servers and 5 environments, and operationally it's like pulling teeth. This has the chance to change everything!

heymishy 12y ago
whats your current deployment strategy, series of powershell scripts or something chef/puppet based? We had a powershell based setup and my previous shop but hardest part was maintaing and deploying different databases to make the tests relevant. How do you think docker containers helps (as Im not sure it would have helped in my previous situation - too many other base issues to deal with first)
- amarraja 12y ago
  Git -> Teamcity -> Octopus -> Server. We also use database migrations to keep everything updated. It's a simple process but works well. Code and deployment is all fine, it's maintainaing server configurations across environments (IIS, permissions, ports, ips, firewalls to name a few, a different issue every time and on every env!). Likely this is more to do with having completely seperated operations and development, however bring able to control the apps environment will allow us to deliver more, faster.
  - heymishy 12y ago
    ah nice, we looked into octopus at the time but was still early development days and was too much of a risk, otherwise pretty much the same stack. I can see what you mean re server config, would be a lot easier with docker than what i was hacking about with vagrant. thanks for the info!
    - amarraja 12y ago
      We are running a fairly old version (two years old, haven't upgraded yet) and I would wholeheartedly recommend it!
  - deadweight3 12y ago
    Does anyone know of a reasonable deployment management solution in open source for .Net? Octopus is perfect, but with my limited budget of $0, it's a tad costly.
    - smurfpandey 12y ago
      You can try Web Deploy http://www.iis.net/downloads/microsoft/web-deploy http://www.iis.net/downloads/microsoft/web-deploy
      - MadhanA 12y ago
        Hey, this is Madhan from Azure team. Great to see this conversation about Octopus. Stay tuned for news about Octopus and Azure.
    - mythz 12y ago
      You can use WebDeploy, here's a walkthrough for publishing ASP.NET Web Applications to AWS with WebDeploy which can also be automated with a Grunt task: https://github.com/ServiceStack/ServiceStack/wiki/Simple-Deployments-to-AWS-with-WebDeploy https://github.com/ServiceStack/ServiceStack/wiki/Simple-Dep...
    - SEJeff 12y ago
      It is a linux tool primarily, but I'm one of the comaintainers of the saltstack salt config management tool. It supports windows pretty well and we have plenty of users who use it on windows for their enterprise server deployments. It can be used to replace deployment tools like capistrano and fabric on Linux. No reason it can't do the same on Windows if you grok it enough to use it. http://www.saltstack.com/community/ http://www.saltstack.com/community/
    - berdario 12y ago
      Ansible recently started to support Windows: http://docs.ansible.com/intro_windows.html http://docs.ansible.com/intro_windows.html I haven't used it yet on Windows, but it's good enough on unixes... And it's quite lightweight and easy to setup (it relies on python2 on *nix and powershell on windows)
  - wluu 12y ago
    If I understand correctly, I think Powershell DSC (Desired State Configuration) might be able to do what you need with regards to windows server config. See: - http://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/library/dn249918.aspx http://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/library/dn249918.aspx - http://powershell.org/wp/2013/10/02/building-a-desired-state-configuration-infrastructure/ http://powershell.org/wp/2013/10/02/building-a-desired-state...
    - amarraja 12y ago
      Looks interesting, but our problem is more a separation of operation and development teams. It's not ideal, but we're a dev house and clients like to keep their operations in house for a number of reason (PCI compliance is one of them). From my point of view OS configuration for app level concerns (web servers, services etc), should sit in the development realm, ready for operational teams to distribute and monitor. Scripting systems does help, but it is not the final solution when you have mixed, varying talent teams. As a side note, every time I have tried scripting Windows systems I get an extra gray hair!
  - serve_yay 12y ago
    Octopus is excellent, probably my favorite part of when I previously worked in a .NET shop.
nickstinemates 12y ago
I'd love to hear more about your use case. Please don't hesitate to reach out.
- UnoriginalGuy 12y ago
  I have a question for you, does this alliance relate to this work by Microsoft research? http://research.microsoft.com/en-us/projects/drawbridge/ http://research.microsoft.com/en-us/projects/drawbridge/ Or something else entirely.
  - nickstinemates 12y ago
    Something else entirely. New, native capability being added to Windows proper.
  - so0k 12y ago
    I was also expecting MS to revive libOS... it's a happy surprise they will go with the docker ecosystem instead
  - MadhanA 12y ago
    My name is Madhan and I am part of the Microsoft Azure team. Regarding Drawbridge, as you pointed out it is an internal research project that we have been innovating on, and that has helped us gain valuable experience with containers. Much of what we announced today was born from the experience that we had with Drawbridge and we are excited to bring container technologies to Windows Server and the Docker ecosystem along with Linux. We think the combination of our own hypervisor for container virtualization and Docker containers for creating a unified deployment and management experience is a compelling scenario for our customers.
- amarraja 12y ago
  Sure, it's a large ecommerce app and I work with a development firm (operations is handled by another company). Our dev process is quite nice, we have fully automated builds and deployments which are feature branch aware, allowing us to run several features side by side. On the ops side however, most of the work is done either manually or the scripts are unreliable (again, external company nothing much we can do about it). Setting up new environments can take months. Many times we want to introduce new services but the time it would take to get our infrastructure updated usually outweighs any benefits. Being able to ship configured containers as smoothly as we can ship code would be nothing short of revolutionary!
joelthelion 12y ago
Out of curiosity, why are your applications running on Windows?
- amarraja 12y ago
  Current client is a Windows/.NET shop. There are some parts which use Linux, but that is more infrastructure, all the apps run Windows -- and rather well too!
  - yohanatan 12y ago
    Since when do applications 'run' operating systems?
    - observer1101 12y ago
      Since at least 1999 or so when VMware showed up :)
      - yohanatan 12y ago
        :) VMWare is an application that runs operating systems, yes. But a) original poster is talking about a web application; not a virtual machine or hypervisor and b) VMWare itself still requires an underlying operating system-- one could argue that this case is actually an operating system running another operating system with a thin adapter layer in between (i.e., the VMWare application).
        frostmatthew 12y ago
        > VMWare itself still requires an underlying operating system VMware is a company, not a product - the product you're [probably?] referring to is ESX[1], which does not require an underlying OS - it's a Type 1 hypervisor (it runs on bare metal). [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VMware_ESX https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VMware_ESX
        12y ago
taha_jahangir 12y ago
Best news in MS space, but probably worst news for open source
- nickstinemates 12y ago
  All of this is being contributed under the governance of the Docker project. If you believe in the Apache 2 license, then this should in no way be bad for Open Source.
  - indrax 12y ago
    At one level, yes. At a lower level, this is strengthening a proprietary platform, and might lower adoption of FOSS platforms. At a higher level, co-opting an open source technology to deliver closed source software may indicate a strategic flaw in our approach to FOSS. On Microsoft's part this is clearly a continuation of 'embrace and extend'. They'll use docker to provide the functionality and build hype until they can build their own version into the OS by default. Docker on Windows becomes obsolete, and everyone runs apps on Azure.
- clickbyclick 12y ago
  My $.02 as someone involved in the space, it means: * Docker isn't going away anytime soon * All the big IaaS and PaaS players will be re-positioning to incorporate * That the pin has been pulled on the future acquisition They are becoming too big to be solo... and I'm thrilled for their team
  - deleted 12y ago
    [deleted]
  - nickstinemates 12y ago
    I mean.. I guess? Maybe? Much better to focus on what we can control - making docker awesome for as many people as possible.
  - teacup50 12y ago
    If this is true, then we're about to become locked-in to Docker's "kitchen sink" model of application packaging, where we're back to the bad old days of applications that can only run on a single platform. So much for the portability of modern language runtimes (Ruby, Java, Python, etc), or even being able to cross-compile to other platforms. Docker solves the wrong end of application packaging by essentially packaging up the entire damn global (and non-portable) OS environment.
tbrock 12y ago
What about windows 10 actually having a usable console with features such as selecting text and line wrapping?
- roghummal 12y ago
  Win10 includes a terminal that has text selection and line wrapping? This changes everything!
  - lstamour 12y ago
    What's next? Tabs? (I wish...)
  - Scuds 12y ago
    it's called the Powershell ISE, and it's been around for awhile.
- fru2013 12y ago
  And being able to resize the console window...
  - Khao 12y ago
    That's possible to do already : right-click the title of the window, go to properties - configuration and change the size there. It's stupid that you have to "configure" your window size instead of just resizing it but at least it works.
    - echion 12y ago
      I assumed the OP meant "resize [by dragging the window borders]".
- bdunbar 12y ago
  One can select text in the current cmd window.

heymishy 12y ago

whats your current deployment strategy, series of powershell scripts or something chef/puppet based? We had a powershell based setup and my previous shop but hardest part was maintaing and deploying different databases to make the tests relevant. How do you think docker containers helps (as Im not sure it would have helped in my previous situation - too many other base issues to deal with first)

amarraja 12y ago
Git -> Teamcity -> Octopus -> Server. We also use database migrations to keep everything updated. It's a simple process but works well. Code and deployment is all fine, it's maintainaing server configurations across environments (IIS, permissions, ports, ips, firewalls to name a few, a different issue every time and on every env!). Likely this is more to do with having completely seperated operations and development, however bring able to control the apps environment will allow us to deliver more, faster.
- heymishy 12y ago
  ah nice, we looked into octopus at the time but was still early development days and was too much of a risk, otherwise pretty much the same stack. I can see what you mean re server config, would be a lot easier with docker than what i was hacking about with vagrant. thanks for the info!
  - amarraja 12y ago
    We are running a fairly old version (two years old, haven't upgraded yet) and I would wholeheartedly recommend it!
- deadweight3 12y ago
  Does anyone know of a reasonable deployment management solution in open source for .Net? Octopus is perfect, but with my limited budget of $0, it's a tad costly.
  - smurfpandey 12y ago
    You can try Web Deploy http://www.iis.net/downloads/microsoft/web-deploy http://www.iis.net/downloads/microsoft/web-deploy
    - MadhanA 12y ago
      Hey, this is Madhan from Azure team. Great to see this conversation about Octopus. Stay tuned for news about Octopus and Azure.
  - mythz 12y ago
    You can use WebDeploy, here's a walkthrough for publishing ASP.NET Web Applications to AWS with WebDeploy which can also be automated with a Grunt task: https://github.com/ServiceStack/ServiceStack/wiki/Simple-Deployments-to-AWS-with-WebDeploy https://github.com/ServiceStack/ServiceStack/wiki/Simple-Dep...
  - SEJeff 12y ago
    It is a linux tool primarily, but I'm one of the comaintainers of the saltstack salt config management tool. It supports windows pretty well and we have plenty of users who use it on windows for their enterprise server deployments. It can be used to replace deployment tools like capistrano and fabric on Linux. No reason it can't do the same on Windows if you grok it enough to use it. http://www.saltstack.com/community/ http://www.saltstack.com/community/
  - berdario 12y ago
    Ansible recently started to support Windows: http://docs.ansible.com/intro_windows.html http://docs.ansible.com/intro_windows.html I haven't used it yet on Windows, but it's good enough on unixes... And it's quite lightweight and easy to setup (it relies on python2 on *nix and powershell on windows)
- wluu 12y ago
  If I understand correctly, I think Powershell DSC (Desired State Configuration) might be able to do what you need with regards to windows server config. See: - http://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/library/dn249918.aspx http://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/library/dn249918.aspx - http://powershell.org/wp/2013/10/02/building-a-desired-state-configuration-infrastructure/ http://powershell.org/wp/2013/10/02/building-a-desired-state...
  - amarraja 12y ago
    Looks interesting, but our problem is more a separation of operation and development teams. It's not ideal, but we're a dev house and clients like to keep their operations in house for a number of reason (PCI compliance is one of them). From my point of view OS configuration for app level concerns (web servers, services etc), should sit in the development realm, ready for operational teams to distribute and monitor. Scripting systems does help, but it is not the final solution when you have mixed, varying talent teams. As a side note, every time I have tried scripting Windows systems I get an extra gray hair!
- serve_yay 12y ago
  Octopus is excellent, probably my favorite part of when I previously worked in a .NET shop.

nickstinemates 12y ago

I'd love to hear more about your use case. Please don't hesitate to reach out.

UnoriginalGuy 12y ago
I have a question for you, does this alliance relate to this work by Microsoft research? http://research.microsoft.com/en-us/projects/drawbridge/ http://research.microsoft.com/en-us/projects/drawbridge/ Or something else entirely.
- nickstinemates 12y ago
  Something else entirely. New, native capability being added to Windows proper.
- so0k 12y ago
  I was also expecting MS to revive libOS... it's a happy surprise they will go with the docker ecosystem instead
- MadhanA 12y ago
  My name is Madhan and I am part of the Microsoft Azure team. Regarding Drawbridge, as you pointed out it is an internal research project that we have been innovating on, and that has helped us gain valuable experience with containers. Much of what we announced today was born from the experience that we had with Drawbridge and we are excited to bring container technologies to Windows Server and the Docker ecosystem along with Linux. We think the combination of our own hypervisor for container virtualization and Docker containers for creating a unified deployment and management experience is a compelling scenario for our customers.
amarraja 12y ago
Sure, it's a large ecommerce app and I work with a development firm (operations is handled by another company). Our dev process is quite nice, we have fully automated builds and deployments which are feature branch aware, allowing us to run several features side by side. On the ops side however, most of the work is done either manually or the scripts are unreliable (again, external company nothing much we can do about it). Setting up new environments can take months. Many times we want to introduce new services but the time it would take to get our infrastructure updated usually outweighs any benefits. Being able to ship configured containers as smoothly as we can ship code would be nothing short of revolutionary!

joelthelion 12y ago

Out of curiosity, why are your applications running on Windows?

amarraja 12y ago
Current client is a Windows/.NET shop. There are some parts which use Linux, but that is more infrastructure, all the apps run Windows -- and rather well too!
- yohanatan 12y ago
  Since when do applications 'run' operating systems?
  - observer1101 12y ago
    Since at least 1999 or so when VMware showed up :)
    - yohanatan 12y ago
      :) VMWare is an application that runs operating systems, yes. But a) original poster is talking about a web application; not a virtual machine or hypervisor and b) VMWare itself still requires an underlying operating system-- one could argue that this case is actually an operating system running another operating system with a thin adapter layer in between (i.e., the VMWare application).
      - frostmatthew 12y ago
        > VMWare itself still requires an underlying operating system VMware is a company, not a product - the product you're [probably?] referring to is ESX[1], which does not require an underlying OS - it's a Type 1 hypervisor (it runs on bare metal). [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VMware_ESX https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VMware_ESX
        12y ago

taha_jahangir 12y ago

Best news in MS space, but probably worst news for open source

nickstinemates 12y ago
All of this is being contributed under the governance of the Docker project. If you believe in the Apache 2 license, then this should in no way be bad for Open Source.
- indrax 12y ago
  At one level, yes. At a lower level, this is strengthening a proprietary platform, and might lower adoption of FOSS platforms. At a higher level, co-opting an open source technology to deliver closed source software may indicate a strategic flaw in our approach to FOSS. On Microsoft's part this is clearly a continuation of 'embrace and extend'. They'll use docker to provide the functionality and build hype until they can build their own version into the OS by default. Docker on Windows becomes obsolete, and everyone runs apps on Azure.
clickbyclick 12y ago
My $.02 as someone involved in the space, it means: * Docker isn't going away anytime soon * All the big IaaS and PaaS players will be re-positioning to incorporate * That the pin has been pulled on the future acquisition They are becoming too big to be solo... and I'm thrilled for their team
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
- nickstinemates 12y ago
  I mean.. I guess? Maybe? Much better to focus on what we can control - making docker awesome for as many people as possible.
- teacup50 12y ago
  If this is true, then we're about to become locked-in to Docker's "kitchen sink" model of application packaging, where we're back to the bad old days of applications that can only run on a single platform. So much for the portability of modern language runtimes (Ruby, Java, Python, etc), or even being able to cross-compile to other platforms. Docker solves the wrong end of application packaging by essentially packaging up the entire damn global (and non-portable) OS environment.

tbrock 12y ago

What about windows 10 actually having a usable console with features such as selecting text and line wrapping?

roghummal 12y ago
Win10 includes a terminal that has text selection and line wrapping? This changes everything!
- lstamour 12y ago
  What's next? Tabs? (I wish...)
- Scuds 12y ago
  it's called the Powershell ISE, and it's been around for awhile.
fru2013 12y ago
And being able to resize the console window...
- Khao 12y ago
  That's possible to do already : right-click the title of the window, go to properties - configuration and change the size there. It's stupid that you have to "configure" your window size instead of just resizing it but at least it works.
  - echion 12y ago
    I assumed the OP meant "resize [by dragging the window borders]".
bdunbar 12y ago
One can select text in the current cmd window.