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> "It's fairly widely reported that he did not know that the woman he helped had ebola. Apparently her family had been in denial, and told people she was experi

by Crito 12y ago

> "It's fairly widely reported that he did not know that the woman he helped had ebola. Apparently her family had been in denial, and told people she was experiencing complications from the pregnancy." She apparently died several hours later. If that is true, then while he was interacting with her she was extremely symptomatic. We're talking bleeding out of everywhere. Ebola is not a subtle disease, and she was not merely exhibiting flu-like symptoms at that point. Furthermore, the hospital turned her away because their ebola ward was full. While it is possible that he was an idiot who believed the claims that it was simply pregnancy complications, we're deep into "sufficiently advanced incompetence is indistinguishable from malice" territory. And frankly, it is more charitable to Duncan to assume that he lied. Better a liar than an idiot of that magnitude. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Eric_Duncan#Timeline_of_contraction_and_initial_symptoms http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Eric_Duncan#Timeline_of_... > "On September 15, 2014, the family of Ebola virus disease patient Marthalene Williams were unable to summon an ambulance to transfer Williams to the hospital. Their tenant, Duncan, helped to transfer Williams by taxi to an Ebola treatment ward in Monrovia, Liberia. Duncan rode in the taxi to the treatment ward with Williams, her father, and her brother. The family was turned away due to lack of space and Duncan helped carry Williams from the taxi back into her home, where she died shortly afterwards.[11]"

pdabbadabba 12y ago
Most Ebola patients never bleed profusely the way we imagine them to (though, as it happened, this particular woman was bleeding from the mouth). It apparently is actually very hard to distinguish from other tropical diseases in most cases. http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs103/en/ http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs103/en/ In fact, that is why it took so long to identify and respond to the current outbreak. >Here, then, still in January, long before the outbreak took off, a team of doctors stood at ground zero, staring at some of the first casualties. They had no idea what they were looking at. > The way Ebola kills would seem impossible to mistake. What the casual observer knows of Ebola are its most spectacular cases, or the cinematic depictions of them: prodigious bleeding from eyes, ears, nose, anus, and nipples. Symptoms like these, presenting all at once, would be impossible to miss or misinterpret. But not every Ebola case ends with such a biblical scourge, and many of Ebola’s symptoms are identical to those brought on by other diseases. Until its final stages, Ebola can easily be mistaken for cholera. It can also look a lot like malaria, another long-tenured killer in Guinea. http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/2014/10/ebola-virus-epidemic-containment http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/2014/10/ebola-virus-epide... I don't know why it's so hard to believe that the woman's parents, in denial, said that she was merely suffering from serious complications from her pregnancy and he believed them. It's not as though he would have conducted a thorough exam. He just helped the family carry her a short distance. And, I should add, the very fact that he did this is probably the best evidence there could be that he did not know she had ebola.
- Crito 12y ago
  Regardless, in this particular case it seems rather apparent that Duncan lied. If she was bleeding from the mouth and he was aware of it, in Liberia during an Ebola outbreak, then there at the very least he should have answered that "history of contact with ebola" question with a strong "maybe". I am suspicious of the family being in denial, but I don't think that it is impossible. However for Duncan to also be in denial is far less probable. It also should be noted that "I thought she had cholera/malaria" and "I thought she was having complications with her pregnancy" are two rather distinct claims. Had he said "I don't think that I had contact with ebola, but I did interact with somebody who seemed to have cholera recently..." then I would be far less critical.
  - pdabbadabba 12y ago
    Look, I don't say it was A-OK that Duncan checked "no" in the form. (Which, by the way, asks the question in several different forms, to try to capture cases where people were exposed to something, but don't know what to.) But I do wonder why people are so quick to demonize. He was not a highly educated person, he didn't know the woman he was helping and only saw her briefly, and was (or would have been, had he known) terrified of the consequences of checking "yes" on that box, both in terms of what the authorities would do down the line (quite possibly stick him in a decrepit hospital full of people dying of ebola) and what that would mean coming to grips with. I'm also surprised that people so uncritically accept that his coming here was so terrible in any case. I would bet money that his dying in Dallas means he has infected far fewer people than if he had stayed in Liberia. It certainly serves our purposes to convince people that people with ebola should stay put but I've never heard it explained why, objectively, that is actually the case.
  - mrgriscom 12y ago
    He likely did lie, but can you blame him? If you were faced with a question where answering truthfully meant you'd be trapped in a hellhole where what little healthcare infrastructure there was had already completely fallen apart, and lying meant access to world-class care... which would you pick?

by Crito 12y ago

pdabbadabba 12y ago

Most Ebola patients never bleed profusely the way we imagine them to (though, as it happened, this particular woman was bleeding from the mouth). It apparently is actually very hard to distinguish from other tropical diseases in most cases. http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs103/en/ http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs103/en/ In fact, that is why it took so long to identify and respond to the current outbreak. >Here, then, still in January, long before the outbreak took off, a team of doctors stood at ground zero, staring at some of the first casualties. They had no idea what they were looking at. > The way Ebola kills would seem impossible to mistake. What the casual observer knows of Ebola are its most spectacular cases, or the cinematic depictions of them: prodigious bleeding from eyes, ears, nose, anus, and nipples. Symptoms like these, presenting all at once, would be impossible to miss or misinterpret. But not every Ebola case ends with such a biblical scourge, and many of Ebola’s symptoms are identical to those brought on by other diseases. Until its final stages, Ebola can easily be mistaken for cholera. It can also look a lot like malaria, another long-tenured killer in Guinea. http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/2014/10/ebola-virus-epidemic-containment http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/2014/10/ebola-virus-epide... I don't know why it's so hard to believe that the woman's parents, in denial, said that she was merely suffering from serious complications from her pregnancy and he believed them. It's not as though he would have conducted a thorough exam. He just helped the family carry her a short distance. And, I should add, the very fact that he did this is probably the best evidence there could be that he did not know she had ebola.

Crito 12y ago
Regardless, in this particular case it seems rather apparent that Duncan lied. If she was bleeding from the mouth and he was aware of it, in Liberia during an Ebola outbreak, then there at the very least he should have answered that "history of contact with ebola" question with a strong "maybe". I am suspicious of the family being in denial, but I don't think that it is impossible. However for Duncan to also be in denial is far less probable. It also should be noted that "I thought she had cholera/malaria" and "I thought she was having complications with her pregnancy" are two rather distinct claims. Had he said "I don't think that I had contact with ebola, but I did interact with somebody who seemed to have cholera recently..." then I would be far less critical.
- pdabbadabba 12y ago
  Look, I don't say it was A-OK that Duncan checked "no" in the form. (Which, by the way, asks the question in several different forms, to try to capture cases where people were exposed to something, but don't know what to.) But I do wonder why people are so quick to demonize. He was not a highly educated person, he didn't know the woman he was helping and only saw her briefly, and was (or would have been, had he known) terrified of the consequences of checking "yes" on that box, both in terms of what the authorities would do down the line (quite possibly stick him in a decrepit hospital full of people dying of ebola) and what that would mean coming to grips with. I'm also surprised that people so uncritically accept that his coming here was so terrible in any case. I would bet money that his dying in Dallas means he has infected far fewer people than if he had stayed in Liberia. It certainly serves our purposes to convince people that people with ebola should stay put but I've never heard it explained why, objectively, that is actually the case.
- mrgriscom 12y ago
  He likely did lie, but can you blame him? If you were faced with a question where answering truthfully meant you'd be trapped in a hellhole where what little healthcare infrastructure there was had already completely fallen apart, and lying meant access to world-class care... which would you pick?