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Economists have something to say about the effects of taxes, and it usually isn't 'work harder to make money' - http://www.economics21.org/commentary/tax-increa

Economists have something to say about the effects of taxes, and it usually isn't 'work harder to make money' - http://www.economics21.org/commentary/tax-increases-and-behavioral-responses http://www.economics21.org/commentary/tax-increases-and-beha... I have two friends from Ireland who work at a tech company who recently opened an office there. They love the work and say that it is easy for them and their friends to get jobs because of all the companies coming there. My company is thinking about opening a European office, and Ireland is under consideration. This move might slow or stop companies from coming to Ireland.

tomp 12y ago
Noone is opposing tax breaks that countries give to companies incorporated in that country... as long as the tax breaks only apply to the country in question! However, if Google can pay lower tax on profits generated in the UK/France/rest of EU, by virtue of it being an Irish company, that's tax avoidance, plain and simple.
- smokeyj 12y ago
  > that's tax avoidance, plain and simple. What's wrong with that?
  - Drakim 12y ago
    Everybody wants the benefits that tax money gives society, but nobody wants to pay for it. Companies don't exist in a vacuum, as evident in that very few companies prefer to put their offices in the middle of the sea or deep the jungle. They benefit greatly from infrastructure of our society, and it's fair that they should pay their share to build and maintain it.
    - the_real_bto 12y ago
      You make a very fair argument. The real question is, how do we decide what is fair for each of us to pay? Companies playing legal games around taxes is exactly the behavior that the complicated tax code incentivizes. Play games, get money. Are corporations not supposed to play? It's parallel to programming productivity measurements. If a company starts counting LOC and rewarding it, they are going to get precisely what they asked for: More lines of code.
    - nickff 12y ago
      >"Everybody wants the benefits that tax money gives society, but nobody wants to pay for it." There are a lot of people who think that much (if not most) tax dollars go to waste, so they do not want to pay because they think that taxes are funding harms to their fellow citizens and foreigners. I am one of those people, and I do not want to be responsible for hurting my fellow man.
      - Kudos 12y ago
        But you use the roads we pay for, if your house catches fire, our money goes to the firefighters who try to save it. I wonder if you would be so principled if it cost you money rather than saved you money.
        nickff 12y ago
        If I take your money, then give you something which you must use, or would have to pay for a second time if you did not, your use of this item or service is no endorsement of my action. I use the roads which I (and all my fellow citizens) are forced to pay for, at least partly because the government has crowded out all the alternatives. With respect to firefighters, I would be very happy to return to the system where the insurance company provided fire-fighting services, as was the case before the government took over the industry. I have often made the case against policies that greatly benefit me (financially and otherwise), but at an unacceptable cost to others, and I am sure that I am not alone in having done so.
    - vixin 12y ago
      Can we stop these generalizations? Elsewhere in these comments we have a 'society that thinks'. Now we have the views of 'everybody'. Thanks but no.
- the_real_bto 12y ago
  If you have any tips on how I can avoid paying taxes, please share them. Is tax avoidance supposed to be wrong? Should I feel guilty about my own personal tax avoidance?
  - riffraff 12y ago
    the dutch sandwich is, afaict, still possible. Wrong is a subjective value, but yes, most people feel that it's wrong. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_Irish_arrangement http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_Irish_arrangement
ryanjshaw 12y ago
The companies in question are only there because the Irish government effectively legalised a form of tax evasion. These companies are not paying their fair dues, and their employees are also indirectly profiting from it. Can't say I feel sorry for your friends - their free ride is over and they'll have to join the global job market on a more equal footing with the rest of us who pay our fair share of taxes.
- thrill 12y ago
  The is no such thing as _legalized_ tax evasion, nor fair share. There is compliance with tax laws or noncompliance.
  - DanBC 12y ago
    There's the grey area where companies are exploiting tax schemes in unusual ways and the tax authorities have not yet declared whether those complex schemes are legal or not. Immensely wealthy multinational corporations have a lot of money to spend on lawyers and accountants, so while these companies are probably not evading tax the avoidance schemes they come up with are sometimes not legal requiring them to repay. Don't forget that tax is part of law and so there is what's written and how that's interpreted by the courts. Until you've had case law there are areas of uncertainty.
  - deleted 12y ago
    [deleted]
  - Nursie 12y ago
    Of course there's such a thing as a fair share - what society thinks you and others in y9ur situation should pay to take part. It's not a hard number but perceptions of fairness are certainly important in how democratic countries formulate tax law.
    - DanBC 12y ago
      Certainly in the UK there's a big difference in public perception between different levels of tax avoidance. Someone who reduces their tax burden to about 30% - fair enough. The same person who reduces their tax burden to 1%? They're taking the piss. http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taking_the_piss http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taking_the_piss (first sentence: unreasonable).

tomp 12y ago

Noone is opposing tax breaks that countries give to companies incorporated in that country... as long as the tax breaks only apply to the country in question! However, if Google can pay lower tax on profits generated in the UK/France/rest of EU, by virtue of it being an Irish company, that's tax avoidance, plain and simple.

smokeyj 12y ago
> that's tax avoidance, plain and simple. What's wrong with that?
- Drakim 12y ago
  Everybody wants the benefits that tax money gives society, but nobody wants to pay for it. Companies don't exist in a vacuum, as evident in that very few companies prefer to put their offices in the middle of the sea or deep the jungle. They benefit greatly from infrastructure of our society, and it's fair that they should pay their share to build and maintain it.
  - the_real_bto 12y ago
    You make a very fair argument. The real question is, how do we decide what is fair for each of us to pay? Companies playing legal games around taxes is exactly the behavior that the complicated tax code incentivizes. Play games, get money. Are corporations not supposed to play? It's parallel to programming productivity measurements. If a company starts counting LOC and rewarding it, they are going to get precisely what they asked for: More lines of code.
  - nickff 12y ago
    >"Everybody wants the benefits that tax money gives society, but nobody wants to pay for it." There are a lot of people who think that much (if not most) tax dollars go to waste, so they do not want to pay because they think that taxes are funding harms to their fellow citizens and foreigners. I am one of those people, and I do not want to be responsible for hurting my fellow man.
    - Kudos 12y ago
      But you use the roads we pay for, if your house catches fire, our money goes to the firefighters who try to save it. I wonder if you would be so principled if it cost you money rather than saved you money.
      - nickff 12y ago
        If I take your money, then give you something which you must use, or would have to pay for a second time if you did not, your use of this item or service is no endorsement of my action. I use the roads which I (and all my fellow citizens) are forced to pay for, at least partly because the government has crowded out all the alternatives. With respect to firefighters, I would be very happy to return to the system where the insurance company provided fire-fighting services, as was the case before the government took over the industry. I have often made the case against policies that greatly benefit me (financially and otherwise), but at an unacceptable cost to others, and I am sure that I am not alone in having done so.
  - vixin 12y ago
    Can we stop these generalizations? Elsewhere in these comments we have a 'society that thinks'. Now we have the views of 'everybody'. Thanks but no.
the_real_bto 12y ago
If you have any tips on how I can avoid paying taxes, please share them. Is tax avoidance supposed to be wrong? Should I feel guilty about my own personal tax avoidance?
- riffraff 12y ago
  the dutch sandwich is, afaict, still possible. Wrong is a subjective value, but yes, most people feel that it's wrong. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_Irish_arrangement http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_Irish_arrangement

ryanjshaw 12y ago

The companies in question are only there because the Irish government effectively legalised a form of tax evasion. These companies are not paying their fair dues, and their employees are also indirectly profiting from it. Can't say I feel sorry for your friends - their free ride is over and they'll have to join the global job market on a more equal footing with the rest of us who pay our fair share of taxes.

thrill 12y ago
The is no such thing as _legalized_ tax evasion, nor fair share. There is compliance with tax laws or noncompliance.
- DanBC 12y ago
  There's the grey area where companies are exploiting tax schemes in unusual ways and the tax authorities have not yet declared whether those complex schemes are legal or not. Immensely wealthy multinational corporations have a lot of money to spend on lawyers and accountants, so while these companies are probably not evading tax the avoidance schemes they come up with are sometimes not legal requiring them to repay. Don't forget that tax is part of law and so there is what's written and how that's interpreted by the courts. Until you've had case law there are areas of uncertainty.
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
- Nursie 12y ago
  Of course there's such a thing as a fair share - what society thinks you and others in y9ur situation should pay to take part. It's not a hard number but perceptions of fairness are certainly important in how democratic countries formulate tax law.
  - DanBC 12y ago
    Certainly in the UK there's a big difference in public perception between different levels of tax avoidance. Someone who reduces their tax burden to about 30% - fair enough. The same person who reduces their tax burden to 1%? They're taking the piss. http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taking_the_piss http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taking_the_piss (first sentence: unreasonable).