5 ms·

Show HN: Bliive – Using your free time as currency

40 points by murilomafra 12y ago

bybjorn 12y ago
Cool site! If I signed up for it, and exchanged my web development services for e.g. someone painting my house, I wonder how I'd settle that with my government. Just doing it, and not writing it up as something taxable would be illegal, so do one just make up an amount and then pay the taxman a % of that amount?
- conception 12y ago
  http://www.irs.gov/taxtopics/tc420.html http://www.irs.gov/taxtopics/tc420.html You report it as income, yes.
  - johnchristopher 12y ago
    Wait: http://besttimebank.org/Links/Time%20Dollar/IRS%20Ruling.htm http://besttimebank.org/Links/Time%20Dollar/IRS%20Ruling.htm The IRS has issued three local rulings that Time DollarsT are tax exempt. They have given three reasons for this status. 1. An hour is always an hour, regardless of what is offered 2. They are backed only by a moral obligation and are not legally binding 3. Their purpose is charitable. edit: Q: Are TimeBank Hours taxable?[0] A: No. In several cases TimeBank Hours have been ruled tax exempt by the IRS because an hour is always valued at one hour. There is no legal responsibility on anyone's part to redeem a TimeBank Hour, and the purpose of TimeBank Hours is charitable. Read the IRS rulings here[1]. And more articles here[2]. At some point this could be challenged and we think we have a great case to make that our time spent helping one another should not be taxed. [0] http://danecountytimebank.org/faq http://danecountytimebank.org/faq [1] http://assets.danecountytimebank.org/IRS_TimeDollar_Rulings.doc http://assets.danecountytimebank.org/IRS_TimeDollar_Rulings.... [2] http://actionhub.timebanks.org/taxonomy/term/72 http://actionhub.timebanks.org/taxonomy/term/72
    - gohrt 12y ago
      This is very different from Bliive, which is a barter program, not a one-directional donation program.
      - johnchristopher 12y ago
        No, bliive is more like a mutual credit system than a barter program.
  - lucb1e 12y ago
    Report it as income? How would that work? > Please enter last month's income 193 hours > That will be 47 hours in taxes, please.
    - loucal 12y ago
      iirc it is based on whatever the irc considers fair market value for the service. I couldn't find the spot on irs.gov where I read that in the past but there is this link that gives an example and mentions FMV http://www.irs.gov/Businesses/Small-Businesses-&-Self-Employed/Barter-Exchanges http://www.irs.gov/Businesses/Small-Businesses-&-Self-Employ... edit actually the info is in the first paragraph of that other tc420 link.
- _almosnow 12y ago
  How would it be illegal for someone to paint your house for free?
  - PublicEnemy111 12y ago
    its not free; he's bartering. "Topic 420 - Bartering Income" http://www.irs.gov/taxtopics/tc420.html http://www.irs.gov/taxtopics/tc420.html
  - bdcravens 12y ago
    You misread parent; they asked if not reporting it would be illegal, not the painting itself.
sbspalding 12y ago
This is a cool idea in a similar vein to some of the other barter economy sites that have come out. One question, does the transfer of Time Money happen before or after the actual real-world exchange? I am just wondering what types of barriers are put in place to keep everyone in the system honest. Great great and I wish you the best!
- murilomafra 12y ago
  Hey sbspalding, The transfer happens after the real-world exchange. And after the the exchange you can rate the other user or report the activity. Your profile show how many good votes you have and you can connect with other medias to show you as a reliable person. Thanks a lot for your support.
johnchristopher 12y ago
the Bliive guys are really nice. I contacted them some months ago to know if they would open-source the stack and they quickly replied (that they couldn't yet though). I am involved (until the next meeting, I plan to resign from the managing committee) in a LETS (local exchange trading system) and one of the benefits we seek is to (re)create "social link" between people of the same geographic community. Bliive doesn't put the accent on that, it seems to rely on internet/skype for contact. Timebanking is an interesting topic. In the Dane County they are using it for some young offenders instead of criminally charging them. http://danecountytimebank.org/projects/dctb-youth-court-community-justice http://danecountytimebank.org/projects/dctb-youth-court-comm...
- murilomafra 12y ago
  Hey John, Good to see you again. Timebanking is a great topic. Thanks for your link, its very interesting.
egsec 12y ago
bartering section on craigslist?
- murilomafra 12y ago
  Hey egsec, Good comparison.
munro 12y ago
Nice, I've been wanting this, except for online things. Like when I hit a road block with Idris/Haskell, I wish I could just talk to someone about what I'm thinking. And I also enjoy offering up my expertise, usually in #javascript, #angularjs, or #haskell. As a side note, #haskell is my favorite channel on IRC, everyone is very helpful. But I would love to pick someone's brain for an hour.
- mietek 12y ago
  Give me a shout.
rismay 12y ago
I (briefly) took tax law in college. In the US, if you are a professional and you offer your services for free, there could be a tax liability past a certain amount of time. I always thought this had interesting complications for time banks. Anybody look into this?
estefan 12y ago
Nice idea, but the bartering is a shame. Volunteering can make you live longer apparently, so why not encourage people to give freely?
- masukomi 12y ago
  just because you'd earn "TimeMoney" from it doesn't mean you would spend it. It's nice to know that what I would give had some potential mechanism for guaranteeing a possible return, even if i never invoked that. Just like a money back guarantee on a product. It's nice to have.
rmsaksida 12y ago
I love the idea! I think it has great potential. Some criticism: I think the website needs polish. It looks a little amateur, which might put off some users. And it took me a while to understand what it was about.
housparty 12y ago
I see big things for this company

40 points by murilomafra 12y ago

Cool site! If I signed up for it, and exchanged my web development services for e.g. someone painting my house, I wonder how I'd settle that with my government. Just doing it, and not writing it up as something taxable would be illegal, so do one just make up an amount and then pay the taxman a % of that amount?

conception 12y ago
http://www.irs.gov/taxtopics/tc420.html http://www.irs.gov/taxtopics/tc420.html You report it as income, yes.
- johnchristopher 12y ago
  Wait: http://besttimebank.org/Links/Time%20Dollar/IRS%20Ruling.htm http://besttimebank.org/Links/Time%20Dollar/IRS%20Ruling.htm The IRS has issued three local rulings that Time DollarsT are tax exempt. They have given three reasons for this status. 1. An hour is always an hour, regardless of what is offered 2. They are backed only by a moral obligation and are not legally binding 3. Their purpose is charitable. edit: Q: Are TimeBank Hours taxable?[0] A: No. In several cases TimeBank Hours have been ruled tax exempt by the IRS because an hour is always valued at one hour. There is no legal responsibility on anyone's part to redeem a TimeBank Hour, and the purpose of TimeBank Hours is charitable. Read the IRS rulings here[1]. And more articles here[2]. At some point this could be challenged and we think we have a great case to make that our time spent helping one another should not be taxed. [0] http://danecountytimebank.org/faq http://danecountytimebank.org/faq [1] http://assets.danecountytimebank.org/IRS_TimeDollar_Rulings.doc http://assets.danecountytimebank.org/IRS_TimeDollar_Rulings.... [2] http://actionhub.timebanks.org/taxonomy/term/72 http://actionhub.timebanks.org/taxonomy/term/72
  - gohrt 12y ago
    This is very different from Bliive, which is a barter program, not a one-directional donation program.
    - johnchristopher 12y ago
      No, bliive is more like a mutual credit system than a barter program.
- lucb1e 12y ago
  Report it as income? How would that work? > Please enter last month's income 193 hours > That will be 47 hours in taxes, please.
  - loucal 12y ago
    iirc it is based on whatever the irc considers fair market value for the service. I couldn't find the spot on irs.gov where I read that in the past but there is this link that gives an example and mentions FMV http://www.irs.gov/Businesses/Small-Businesses-&-Self-Employed/Barter-Exchanges http://www.irs.gov/Businesses/Small-Businesses-&-Self-Employ... edit actually the info is in the first paragraph of that other tc420 link.
_almosnow 12y ago
How would it be illegal for someone to paint your house for free?
- PublicEnemy111 12y ago
  its not free; he's bartering. "Topic 420 - Bartering Income" http://www.irs.gov/taxtopics/tc420.html http://www.irs.gov/taxtopics/tc420.html
- bdcravens 12y ago
  You misread parent; they asked if not reporting it would be illegal, not the painting itself.

sbspalding 12y ago

This is a cool idea in a similar vein to some of the other barter economy sites that have come out. One question, does the transfer of Time Money happen before or after the actual real-world exchange? I am just wondering what types of barriers are put in place to keep everyone in the system honest. Great great and I wish you the best!

murilomafra 12y ago
Hey sbspalding, The transfer happens after the real-world exchange. And after the the exchange you can rate the other user or report the activity. Your profile show how many good votes you have and you can connect with other medias to show you as a reliable person. Thanks a lot for your support.

johnchristopher 12y ago

the Bliive guys are really nice. I contacted them some months ago to know if they would open-source the stack and they quickly replied (that they couldn't yet though). I am involved (until the next meeting, I plan to resign from the managing committee) in a LETS (local exchange trading system) and one of the benefits we seek is to (re)create "social link" between people of the same geographic community. Bliive doesn't put the accent on that, it seems to rely on internet/skype for contact. Timebanking is an interesting topic. In the Dane County they are using it for some young offenders instead of criminally charging them. http://danecountytimebank.org/projects/dctb-youth-court-community-justice http://danecountytimebank.org/projects/dctb-youth-court-comm...

murilomafra 12y ago
Hey John, Good to see you again. Timebanking is a great topic. Thanks for your link, its very interesting.

egsec 12y ago

bartering section on craigslist?

murilomafra 12y ago
Hey egsec, Good comparison.

munro 12y ago

Nice, I've been wanting this, except for online things. Like when I hit a road block with Idris/Haskell, I wish I could just talk to someone about what I'm thinking. And I also enjoy offering up my expertise, usually in #javascript, #angularjs, or #haskell. As a side note, #haskell is my favorite channel on IRC, everyone is very helpful. But I would love to pick someone's brain for an hour.

mietek 12y ago
Give me a shout.

rismay 12y ago

I (briefly) took tax law in college. In the US, if you are a professional and you offer your services for free, there could be a tax liability past a certain amount of time. I always thought this had interesting complications for time banks. Anybody look into this?

estefan 12y ago

Nice idea, but the bartering is a shame. Volunteering can make you live longer apparently, so why not encourage people to give freely?

masukomi 12y ago
just because you'd earn "TimeMoney" from it doesn't mean you would spend it. It's nice to know that what I would give had some potential mechanism for guaranteeing a possible return, even if i never invoked that. Just like a money back guarantee on a product. It's nice to have.

rmsaksida 12y ago

I love the idea! I think it has great potential. Some criticism: I think the website needs polish. It looks a little amateur, which might put off some users. And it took me a while to understand what it was about.

housparty 12y ago

I see big things for this company