7 ms·

I'll play devil's advocate as your brush strokes are hyperbolically broad. Couldn't one just as simply say "Programmers are toxic to business. They're classic

I'll play devil's advocate as your brush strokes are hyperbolically broad. Couldn't one just as simply say "Programmers are toxic to business. They're classically myopic optimizing for 'fun' technical stacks without understanding the business they're working in." That's obviously untrue as well. I've been lucky enough to work with some very good folks who are MBAs. I would suggest the issue you're seeing is similar to what we try to avoid in the tech culture. We want to hire the best engineers out there...not the average code monkeys. Similarly, if you hire great MBAs they should not be toxic to businesses.

michaelochurch 12y ago
Similarly, if you hire great MBAs they should not be toxic to businesses. I agree. We get burned by the Damaso Effect: the good MBAs work on billion-dollar private equity deals and the ones who fail out end up going West and managing nerds. Further reading: http://michaelochurch.wordpress.com/2014/01/05/vc-istan-8-the-damaso-effect/ http://michaelochurch.wordpress.com/2014/01/05/vc-istan-8-th...
- codescorrectly 12y ago
  Mr. Church writes very well.
- mjmahone17 12y ago
  Interesting. Looking at Michael O. Church's premise, I wonder if it might be possible to bootstrap a professional organization by (initially) inviting only those engineers who already work at a level we'd consider professional: basically, the false negative rate here would need to be <~5%. One option might be to pick only those who have worked, for 2+ years, at a level above "terminal" levels: http://www.quora.com/Engineering-Ladders http://www.quora.com/Engineering-Ladders So the initial invite would be for E6s+ at a few organizations (Google, Facebook, others?). Those people would know others they can vouch for, at either the "senior" level (the E6+ level) or at a "junior" level, but who are on a trajectory to make the "senior" level, eventually. At some point, this group would need to establish either which schools, or which certifications (i.e. MOOC programs) qualify someone for "aspiring junior" or similar roles, much like the bar. Or it could be entirely "project based", i.e. you show the organization some work you've accomplished, and the source code, in order to qualify. I haven't fully thought this through, so I don't really know how to get this right. Given enough cachet, this should allow SDEs to form partnerships, with relatively little "reputation verification" required from their clients, much like how for most lawyers and doctors, people don't really care which one they go to (at least at first), just that they're seeing someone qualified.
GuiA 12y ago
Elon Musk: "I wouldn't recommend an MBA. I'd say no MBA needed. An MBA is a bad idea. [...] It teaches people all sorts of wrong things. [...] They don't teach people to think in MBA schools. And the top MBA schools are the worst. Because they actually teach people that you must be special, and it causes people to close down their feedback loop and not rigorously examine when they are wrong. [...] I hire people in spite of an MBA, not because of one. If you look at the senior managers of my companies, you'll see very few MBAs there." http://www.aps.org/publications/apsnews/201311/profiles.cfm http://www.aps.org/publications/apsnews/201311/profiles.cfm
- ThrustVectoring 12y ago
  >They don't teach people to think in MBA schools. IMO, hardly any school will teach someone how to think. At best, they can give a good environment to pick up those skills and fail out those who can't hack it. This is especially true because of how much guessing the teacher's password looks like learning.
  - jeangenie 12y ago
    You make an excellent point. I might even argue the more extreme position that the goals of contemporary schooling are antithetical to rigorous thinking.
  - cylinder 12y ago
    The way to learn to think is to be a curious, introspective and observant person. Then, retreat to a cabin in the woods for a couple of years reading plenty of classic literature, philosophy, modern non-fiction, etc etc. Now, if I put this on my resume and applied to Tesla, would Musk toss my resume in the trash or want to speak to me?
    - Chronic29 12y ago
      He'd probably want to speak to you.
    - tomsthumb 12y ago
was_hellbanned 12y ago
Couldn't one just as simply say "Programmers are toxic to business. They're classically myopic optimizing for 'fun' technical stacks without understanding the business they're working in." That's obviously untrue as well. Is that untrue? I'd say it's true, and it's exactly why you need a skilled manager to keep an eye on the big picture. Programmers are professional rabbit-hole chasers, and it's extremely easy to lose sight of the business goals. The difference is that the programmer, if properly wrangled, creates real value. The MBA, in my opinion, primarily creates the impression of value.

michaelochurch 12y ago

Similarly, if you hire great MBAs they should not be toxic to businesses. I agree. We get burned by the Damaso Effect: the good MBAs work on billion-dollar private equity deals and the ones who fail out end up going West and managing nerds. Further reading: http://michaelochurch.wordpress.com/2014/01/05/vc-istan-8-the-damaso-effect/ http://michaelochurch.wordpress.com/2014/01/05/vc-istan-8-th...

codescorrectly 12y ago
Mr. Church writes very well.
mjmahone17 12y ago
Interesting. Looking at Michael O. Church's premise, I wonder if it might be possible to bootstrap a professional organization by (initially) inviting only those engineers who already work at a level we'd consider professional: basically, the false negative rate here would need to be <~5%. One option might be to pick only those who have worked, for 2+ years, at a level above "terminal" levels: http://www.quora.com/Engineering-Ladders http://www.quora.com/Engineering-Ladders So the initial invite would be for E6s+ at a few organizations (Google, Facebook, others?). Those people would know others they can vouch for, at either the "senior" level (the E6+ level) or at a "junior" level, but who are on a trajectory to make the "senior" level, eventually. At some point, this group would need to establish either which schools, or which certifications (i.e. MOOC programs) qualify someone for "aspiring junior" or similar roles, much like the bar. Or it could be entirely "project based", i.e. you show the organization some work you've accomplished, and the source code, in order to qualify. I haven't fully thought this through, so I don't really know how to get this right. Given enough cachet, this should allow SDEs to form partnerships, with relatively little "reputation verification" required from their clients, much like how for most lawyers and doctors, people don't really care which one they go to (at least at first), just that they're seeing someone qualified.

GuiA 12y ago

Elon Musk: "I wouldn't recommend an MBA. I'd say no MBA needed. An MBA is a bad idea. [...] It teaches people all sorts of wrong things. [...] They don't teach people to think in MBA schools. And the top MBA schools are the worst. Because they actually teach people that you must be special, and it causes people to close down their feedback loop and not rigorously examine when they are wrong. [...] I hire people in spite of an MBA, not because of one. If you look at the senior managers of my companies, you'll see very few MBAs there." http://www.aps.org/publications/apsnews/201311/profiles.cfm http://www.aps.org/publications/apsnews/201311/profiles.cfm

ThrustVectoring 12y ago
>They don't teach people to think in MBA schools. IMO, hardly any school will teach someone how to think. At best, they can give a good environment to pick up those skills and fail out those who can't hack it. This is especially true because of how much guessing the teacher's password looks like learning.
- jeangenie 12y ago
  You make an excellent point. I might even argue the more extreme position that the goals of contemporary schooling are antithetical to rigorous thinking.
- cylinder 12y ago
  The way to learn to think is to be a curious, introspective and observant person. Then, retreat to a cabin in the woods for a couple of years reading plenty of classic literature, philosophy, modern non-fiction, etc etc. Now, if I put this on my resume and applied to Tesla, would Musk toss my resume in the trash or want to speak to me?
  - Chronic29 12y ago
    He'd probably want to speak to you.
  - tomsthumb 12y ago

was_hellbanned 12y ago

Couldn't one just as simply say "Programmers are toxic to business. They're classically myopic optimizing for 'fun' technical stacks without understanding the business they're working in." That's obviously untrue as well. Is that untrue? I'd say it's true, and it's exactly why you need a skilled manager to keep an eye on the big picture. Programmers are professional rabbit-hole chasers, and it's extremely easy to lose sight of the business goals. The difference is that the programmer, if properly wrangled, creates real value. The MBA, in my opinion, primarily creates the impression of value.