4 ms·

First thing I looked for was, "Bart around the Bay" - nothing there. It's beyond me why nobody has made getting Bart circling the bay a priority, and really is

First thing I looked for was, "Bart around the Bay" - nothing there. It's beyond me why nobody has made getting Bart circling the bay a priority, and really is a blight on "Bay Area" transit.

1stranger 12y ago
It is, in a way. The current objective is to get BART to reach San Jose (and maybe Santa Clara) so that you can make a loop with Caltrain. It's hard to see BART ever replacing Caltrain (and eventually the high speed rail line) up the south bay/lower peninsula.
sparkman55 12y ago
Caltrain is already pretty good on the Peninsula. Since the various towns on the Peninsula were founded in the railroad era, the Caltrain stops conveniently in each downtown. Where would a BART line run on the Peninsula? Down 101 from Millbrae? Such a route would cost billions over some of the most expensive real estate in the country, yet wouldn't serve the denser parts of the peninsula well. Modernizing the Caltrain seems like a much better use of money. It's clear from the website that this stuff is very expensive! If we want to dream, a BART extension from Milpitas through Santa Clara (and the new stadium) to link up with the light rail and Caltrain in downtown Mountain View would be awesome, though!
- ak217 12y ago
  Caltrain is not "already pretty good". It has antiquated, overweight trains due to federal requirements and the fact that it shares track with freight traffic. Those trains can't accelerate properly, so those "convenient" stops in each downtown mean the trains can't run with enough frequency. There are not enough trains and too many at grade crossings, which produce severe noise pollution (due to the federal horn sounding requirements). Caltrain is WAY overdue for upgrades. The electrification project, which will solve some but not all of these problems, is in need of a speedup. Many at grade crossings need to be replaced with bridges (and some are being replaced), but because of all the fiefdom-like towns along the way, getting anything done along the right-of-way is a nightmare. Although there is no tractable way to merge Caltrain with BART (because of BART's own foolish planning decisions, such as a custom gauge), and you're right that there is no space for a second right-of-way, there is another neglected project that would benefit here: Dumbarton Rail (http://www.bayrailalliance.org/dumbarton_rail http://www.bayrailalliance.org/dumbarton_rail). At various points it was suggested that either BART or Caltrain should be extended across that bridge - either way, completing that link would add badly needed capacity in a region that has long neglected its traffic infrastructure.
- ghshephard 12y ago
  Caltrain is far from "pretty good" on the peninsula. It's passable for a few purposes only - commuter and event rail. (I.E. Getting people to the office in the morning, getting people people home at night, and likewise with sports events in AT&T stadium). As a serviceable mass transit system, it's almost worthless. The trains come infrequently, and require really inefficient transfers in the city to BART if you want to travel from, say, Mountain View to Oakland. I just came back from Singapore - and I was able to get almost any place in the country + a 5 minute cab ride the entire day using their MRT. I understand that Tokyo (and to some degree, New York) have similarly advanced transit systems. I used Caltrain + Bart for about 15 years, but you really don't realize how bad Caltrain + BART are, until you travel somewhere that was a first class mass transit system.
chipsy 12y ago
If HSR completes, we'll have faster Caltrain, which is probably Good Enough.
djcapelis 12y ago
Santa Clara county voted not to be part of BART, so BART has no real authority to run transit there. It was supposed to be around the bay, it sucks. Talk to the voters in Santa Clara county! Put something on the ballot! Change it! Please! (Santa Clara decided to spend that money on those silly expressways instead.)
- steven2012 12y ago
  Don't forget San Mateo County also voted to not have BART, due to their shortsighted belief that people from other counties would "steal" their jobs.
  - declan 12y ago
    Millbrae, Colma, Daly City, etc. -- and their respective BART stops -- are all in San Mateo County.
    - steven2012 12y ago
      Yes, that's because they withdrew from BART in the 60s and decided to rejoin them back in the late 1990s. If they didn't reject BART back at its inception, things would be a lot different.
      - djcapelis 12y ago
        Technically they haven't rejoined. But SamTrans cooperates to some degree and does pitch in for funding. But San Mateo still isn't a governing member and can't elect people to the BART board.
- nsnick 12y ago
  Actually, it is San Mateo County that is the real problem. Most of the people live in the East Bay and most of the jobs are in San Mateo County.
seanp2k2 12y ago
San Jose station and 24x7 service. Not having either of these makes BART nearly worthless to me. If they had these things, I would use BART probably a few times a week to go to SF from SJ. Right now, I drive instead (1x on average every other week) to night clubs / bars / dinner in SF / Berkeley. I can park at Millbrae and take BART into the city, but doing so is only useful if I'm going to be back before ~midnight. Caltrain is not an option because the service isn't 24x7, it's terribly slow, the train doesn't come often enough, and the station isn't close to where I live. The last 2 are just personal annoyances, but I think the first 2 are enough to make it a much-less-desirable option vs driving for people who would otherwise take it. That the cars are ridiculously over-built because they technically share tracks with freight trains (from what I've read, this is also what makes them so horribly loud and inefficient [which also makes the system much more expensive to run]) and do lots of PR damage by having very loud horns (my speculation: is that also related to the shares-tracks-with-freight-trains thing?) are just rotten cherries on top. Public transit isn't easy, but it's also not impossible. I know that even the Bay Area doesn't have the population density of places with their public transit
- terinjokes 12y ago
  The loud horn thing is a federal requirement because the tracks are at the same level (the same "grade") as roads and paths. One reason to support grade separation for Caltrain.
- hueving 12y ago
  An express caltrain is faster than driving (unless you encounter no traffic, in which case the drive would be 9 mins faster) and you don't have to worry about parking. It's not quite as bad as you say. No 24/7 service is really annoying though.
swartkrans 12y ago
I'd really like to see Bart extend to Marin County. Like why isn't that even an option when a second transbay tube is? An extension to San Rafael, Marin City and maybe even Novato would be greatly appreciated.
- blackjack48 12y ago
  The anti-growth, Agenda 21 conspiracy theorist crowd is far too large in the North Bay. Instead, this is being built to go to the Larkspur Ferry: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sonoma-Marin_Area_Rail_Transit http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sonoma-Marin_Area_Rail_Transit

First thing I looked for was, "Bart around the Bay" - nothing there. It's beyond me why nobody has made getting Bart circling the bay a priority, and really is a blight on "Bay Area" transit.

1stranger 12y ago

It is, in a way. The current objective is to get BART to reach San Jose (and maybe Santa Clara) so that you can make a loop with Caltrain. It's hard to see BART ever replacing Caltrain (and eventually the high speed rail line) up the south bay/lower peninsula.

sparkman55 12y ago

Caltrain is already pretty good on the Peninsula. Since the various towns on the Peninsula were founded in the railroad era, the Caltrain stops conveniently in each downtown. Where would a BART line run on the Peninsula? Down 101 from Millbrae? Such a route would cost billions over some of the most expensive real estate in the country, yet wouldn't serve the denser parts of the peninsula well. Modernizing the Caltrain seems like a much better use of money. It's clear from the website that this stuff is very expensive! If we want to dream, a BART extension from Milpitas through Santa Clara (and the new stadium) to link up with the light rail and Caltrain in downtown Mountain View would be awesome, though!

ak217 12y ago
Caltrain is not "already pretty good". It has antiquated, overweight trains due to federal requirements and the fact that it shares track with freight traffic. Those trains can't accelerate properly, so those "convenient" stops in each downtown mean the trains can't run with enough frequency. There are not enough trains and too many at grade crossings, which produce severe noise pollution (due to the federal horn sounding requirements). Caltrain is WAY overdue for upgrades. The electrification project, which will solve some but not all of these problems, is in need of a speedup. Many at grade crossings need to be replaced with bridges (and some are being replaced), but because of all the fiefdom-like towns along the way, getting anything done along the right-of-way is a nightmare. Although there is no tractable way to merge Caltrain with BART (because of BART's own foolish planning decisions, such as a custom gauge), and you're right that there is no space for a second right-of-way, there is another neglected project that would benefit here: Dumbarton Rail (http://www.bayrailalliance.org/dumbarton_rail http://www.bayrailalliance.org/dumbarton_rail). At various points it was suggested that either BART or Caltrain should be extended across that bridge - either way, completing that link would add badly needed capacity in a region that has long neglected its traffic infrastructure.
ghshephard 12y ago
Caltrain is far from "pretty good" on the peninsula. It's passable for a few purposes only - commuter and event rail. (I.E. Getting people to the office in the morning, getting people people home at night, and likewise with sports events in AT&T stadium). As a serviceable mass transit system, it's almost worthless. The trains come infrequently, and require really inefficient transfers in the city to BART if you want to travel from, say, Mountain View to Oakland. I just came back from Singapore - and I was able to get almost any place in the country + a 5 minute cab ride the entire day using their MRT. I understand that Tokyo (and to some degree, New York) have similarly advanced transit systems. I used Caltrain + Bart for about 15 years, but you really don't realize how bad Caltrain + BART are, until you travel somewhere that was a first class mass transit system.

chipsy 12y ago

If HSR completes, we'll have faster Caltrain, which is probably Good Enough.

djcapelis 12y ago

Santa Clara county voted not to be part of BART, so BART has no real authority to run transit there. It was supposed to be around the bay, it sucks. Talk to the voters in Santa Clara county! Put something on the ballot! Change it! Please! (Santa Clara decided to spend that money on those silly expressways instead.)

steven2012 12y ago
Don't forget San Mateo County also voted to not have BART, due to their shortsighted belief that people from other counties would "steal" their jobs.
- declan 12y ago
  Millbrae, Colma, Daly City, etc. -- and their respective BART stops -- are all in San Mateo County.
  - steven2012 12y ago
    Yes, that's because they withdrew from BART in the 60s and decided to rejoin them back in the late 1990s. If they didn't reject BART back at its inception, things would be a lot different.
    - djcapelis 12y ago
      Technically they haven't rejoined. But SamTrans cooperates to some degree and does pitch in for funding. But San Mateo still isn't a governing member and can't elect people to the BART board.
nsnick 12y ago
Actually, it is San Mateo County that is the real problem. Most of the people live in the East Bay and most of the jobs are in San Mateo County.

seanp2k2 12y ago

San Jose station and 24x7 service. Not having either of these makes BART nearly worthless to me. If they had these things, I would use BART probably a few times a week to go to SF from SJ. Right now, I drive instead (1x on average every other week) to night clubs / bars / dinner in SF / Berkeley. I can park at Millbrae and take BART into the city, but doing so is only useful if I'm going to be back before ~midnight. Caltrain is not an option because the service isn't 24x7, it's terribly slow, the train doesn't come often enough, and the station isn't close to where I live. The last 2 are just personal annoyances, but I think the first 2 are enough to make it a much-less-desirable option vs driving for people who would otherwise take it. That the cars are ridiculously over-built because they technically share tracks with freight trains (from what I've read, this is also what makes them so horribly loud and inefficient [which also makes the system much more expensive to run]) and do lots of PR damage by having very loud horns (my speculation: is that also related to the shares-tracks-with-freight-trains thing?) are just rotten cherries on top. Public transit isn't easy, but it's also not impossible. I know that even the Bay Area doesn't have the population density of places with their public transit

terinjokes 12y ago
The loud horn thing is a federal requirement because the tracks are at the same level (the same "grade") as roads and paths. One reason to support grade separation for Caltrain.
hueving 12y ago
An express caltrain is faster than driving (unless you encounter no traffic, in which case the drive would be 9 mins faster) and you don't have to worry about parking. It's not quite as bad as you say. No 24/7 service is really annoying though.

swartkrans 12y ago

I'd really like to see Bart extend to Marin County. Like why isn't that even an option when a second transbay tube is? An extension to San Rafael, Marin City and maybe even Novato would be greatly appreciated.

blackjack48 12y ago
The anti-growth, Agenda 21 conspiracy theorist crowd is far too large in the North Bay. Instead, this is being built to go to the Larkspur Ferry: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sonoma-Marin_Area_Rail_Transit http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sonoma-Marin_Area_Rail_Transit