4 ms·

How would you improve BART?

29 points by Plasmoid 12y ago

xfour 12y ago
Scrolled down to not find, "Finish Bart to San Jose", or Connect to new 49ers stadium. I don't even live in the South Bay, and that seems like the most important project.
- nilsimsa 12y ago
  I think it is already in the plans to extend to San Jose and then to Santa Clara.
pstrateman 12y ago
BART really should be a circle line around the bay.
- alialkhatib 12y ago
  I read somewhere that getting it to go through the Peninsula (with affluent homeowners fighting such construction) would be a non-starter. I don't recall how Caltrain factored in (it may be a little quieter but it's still certainly pretty loud and runs right through the Peninsula), but I suspect this is why they didn't bother to include that or other options extending service toward the South Bay.
  - ghshephard 12y ago
    Caltrain runs a screeching loud horn and rumbling noise everywhere it runs. I stayed at a hotel recently (Sequoia Inn, 526 El Camino) - and I was forced to use ear plugs to get any sleep while the Caltrain was running. And I'm a heavy sleeper.
    - was_hellbanned 12y ago
      If I remember correctly, legislation was passed in 2007 requiring trains everywhere in the US to blast their horn four times (length unspecified) before every crossing. The only exceptions are quad-gated crossing (I believe that means a gate covering each lane of traffic on both sides) or in specified "quiet zones". In my area, the trains only get active at around 11:30pm, an continue their racket through the entire night. I'm regularly awakened by needlessly long honking around 4am. It's awful.
  - pstrateman 12y ago
    If the tracks were deep underground it would be fine. Of course that would be super expensive though.
  - bronson 12y ago
    This is correct, the affluent communities have consistently shot Bart down. Caltrain is just as noisy but has the advantage of existing long before any of the housing tracts. San Francisco and San Jose Railroad service started in 1863.
autism_hurts 12y ago
Bart is supposed to be a figure 8 loop in the bay, or at least a full loop through San jose and up the peninsula. The rich will never let this happen in Palo Alto, atherton, etc.
ghshephard 12y ago
First thing I looked for was, "Bart around the Bay" - nothing there. It's beyond me why nobody has made getting Bart circling the bay a priority, and really is a blight on "Bay Area" transit.
- 1stranger 12y ago
  It is, in a way. The current objective is to get BART to reach San Jose (and maybe Santa Clara) so that you can make a loop with Caltrain. It's hard to see BART ever replacing Caltrain (and eventually the high speed rail line) up the south bay/lower peninsula.
- sparkman55 12y ago
  Caltrain is already pretty good on the Peninsula. Since the various towns on the Peninsula were founded in the railroad era, the Caltrain stops conveniently in each downtown. Where would a BART line run on the Peninsula? Down 101 from Millbrae? Such a route would cost billions over some of the most expensive real estate in the country, yet wouldn't serve the denser parts of the peninsula well. Modernizing the Caltrain seems like a much better use of money. It's clear from the website that this stuff is very expensive! If we want to dream, a BART extension from Milpitas through Santa Clara (and the new stadium) to link up with the light rail and Caltrain in downtown Mountain View would be awesome, though!
  - ak217 12y ago
    Caltrain is not "already pretty good". It has antiquated, overweight trains due to federal requirements and the fact that it shares track with freight traffic. Those trains can't accelerate properly, so those "convenient" stops in each downtown mean the trains can't run with enough frequency. There are not enough trains and too many at grade crossings, which produce severe noise pollution (due to the federal horn sounding requirements). Caltrain is WAY overdue for upgrades. The electrification project, which will solve some but not all of these problems, is in need of a speedup. Many at grade crossings need to be replaced with bridges (and some are being replaced), but because of all the fiefdom-like towns along the way, getting anything done along the right-of-way is a nightmare. Although there is no tractable way to merge Caltrain with BART (because of BART's own foolish planning decisions, such as a custom gauge), and you're right that there is no space for a second right-of-way, there is another neglected project that would benefit here: Dumbarton Rail (http://www.bayrailalliance.org/dumbarton_rail http://www.bayrailalliance.org/dumbarton_rail). At various points it was suggested that either BART or Caltrain should be extended across that bridge - either way, completing that link would add badly needed capacity in a region that has long neglected its traffic infrastructure.
chipsy 12y ago
FYI, former BART Director Robert S. Allen made Internet comments railing against transit-oriented development. [0] One of the underlying attitudes that drives today's transit situation is this notion of segregation via restricted transit access. [0] http://systemicfailure.wordpress.com/2014/10/09/ex-bart-director-says-transit-oriented-development-attracts-thugs/ http://systemicfailure.wordpress.com/2014/10/09/ex-bart-dire...
jesseendahl 12y ago
Where is the option for "24 hour service on Fridays and Saturdays?"
- djcapelis 12y ago
  "Second transbay tube" and "increased capacity in core" together allow 24/7 BART service. This is a commonly requested thing, and these are the things needed to make it happen.
  - jesseendahl 12y ago
    Just noticed that as well. Didn't realize hovering would reveal more info at first. Awesome!
  - hueving 12y ago
    Can you explain why more track is needed for a service that doesn't run 24/7 to allow it to run 24/7?
    - jaredsohn 12y ago
      I've heard it stated that one reason BART doesn't run 24/7 is that they regularly need to be able to shut down a track to do maintenance. More track provides redundancy that allows them to redirect traffic from one track to the other when doing maintenance on it. There is more information about this on Quora: http://www.quora.com/Why-does-BART-need-to-do-nightly-maintenance?share=1 http://www.quora.com/Why-does-BART-need-to-do-nightly-mainte...
    - cperciva 12y ago
      I can't speak to BART, but in Vancouver when people ask why our trains don't run 24/7 the answer is always "because we need maintenance windows". Maybe the second transbay tube would allow them to keep one tube open while they do work on the other tube?
    - nrau 12y ago
      BART does not currently run 24/7 primarily because they have to perform maintenance on the system, some of which requires that trains are not running. This is especially the case for the Transbay Tube which requires a lot of attention. If BART had two tubes then they could run 24/7 and still complete the required maintenance with shut down periods staggered at different times for each tube. This would allow the full system to remain running 24/7.
jaysonelliot 12y ago
These kind of pseudo-public-feedback surveys where the solutions available are presented as a limited set of options, all funneling towards what the agency wanted to do in the first place, really bug me. You've got an entrenched bureaucracy that's paralyzed by a dysfunctional relationship with unions and a We've Always Done Things This Way™ mentality presenting what they think are the only options for fixing a system like BART. Not one word about eliminating waste, improving efficiency, or innovation. Just a thinly-veiled complaint about budget shortfalls and an obvious plea for a sales tax increase to fill their coffers. It would be wonderful if BART actually solicited public feedback on ways to improve the system. We're right in the middle of the most vibrant tech corridor in the nation, if not the world. You've got innovators and entrepreneurs that ride the system every day, many of whom would leap at the chance to fix an outdated, bureaucratic culture like the Bay Area Rapid Transit. This is just an advocacy page for a bigger BART budget.
- spikels 12y ago
  All the choices offered are spend more or tax more. Haven't they been budgeting for the "$$$$$ $" in needed maintenance and repair all along? It appears that BART was never run to be sustainable but would require period bailouts to just survive. We can do better than this!
- apsec112 12y ago
  Where does all the money go? The Bay Area, and NYC even more so, spend far more than anywhere else in the world for an equivalent level of rail service. The "Central Subway" (only 2 km of tunnel!) will cost $1.6 billion; at the end of the day, that money is going into someone's pocket. Whose? As far as I can tell, nobody in local government has the foggiest idea - the contractors all hide what they're doing under a cloak of darkness. Maybe FOIA should be extended to private contractors for contracts over a certain amount.
aftbit 12y ago
This whole site feels like pure PR to me. BART wants the problems facing them to look huge, and their current funding sources to look massively insufficient.
jmspring 12y ago
Cut the pay to the BART board, do away with life time "free access" passes, and run for longer hours.
- jessedhillon 12y ago
  So assume there are 200 board members (a stupid number) each having their pay cut by $100k (another stupid number), and each of those have 5 passes for their family members who ride BART every day of the year from one end to the other (about a $10 ride) -- thats $20.365m. Where's the rest of the money going to come from?
ulfw 12y ago
Cleaning up and modernizing trains would be a big one for me. I rode BART again recently for the first time in 17 years and it looked, felt and smelled exactly the same as back in 1998. It's a disgrace for an Alpha-World City. A homeless person was driving back and forth, sleeping on the front seats. The seats and carpet were decades old. How hard can it be to at least modernize/clean the rolling stock, if you're not willing to invest in new ones?
- sethhochberg 12y ago
  They actually are investing in new ones. http://www.bart.gov/about/projects/cars http://www.bart.gov/about/projects/cars
erikpukinskis 12y ago
Bike cars with dedicated bike racks.
deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
jamesli 12y ago
More parking capacity in the Bart station. A lot of people decide to drive to the city because they cannot find a parking space in some stations. It is not practical for them to walk or bike to the stations due to a variety of difficulties. The extra parking space could be achieved either by converting the basic and space-inefficient one floor parking ramp to two floors, or building a new underground one.
benjiweber 12y ago
For reference here's some plans for the next few years of upgrades to the London Underground https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z3Q0FZUKHkY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z3Q0FZUKHkY
tomlongson 12y ago
I would make single car trains that are built by tesla and go exactly where you need. Need to go directly to Fremont? Get on a train that is routed directly to your destination with other patrons from Embarcadero to Fremont. No unnecessary stops. This would require infrastructure for stations to include "offramps", but with a modular bus system (think uber), your ride would be available at the Fremont station waiting to take you the last few miles.
share1love 12y ago
BART will go to San Jose in 2018 paid for by Santa Clara County tax payers and federal funding. You would still have to take VTA's LRT to the 49ers stadium from the future Milpitas Station.

29 points by Plasmoid 12y ago

xfour 12y ago

Scrolled down to not find, "Finish Bart to San Jose", or Connect to new 49ers stadium. I don't even live in the South Bay, and that seems like the most important project.

nilsimsa 12y ago
I think it is already in the plans to extend to San Jose and then to Santa Clara.

pstrateman 12y ago

BART really should be a circle line around the bay.

alialkhatib 12y ago
I read somewhere that getting it to go through the Peninsula (with affluent homeowners fighting such construction) would be a non-starter. I don't recall how Caltrain factored in (it may be a little quieter but it's still certainly pretty loud and runs right through the Peninsula), but I suspect this is why they didn't bother to include that or other options extending service toward the South Bay.
- ghshephard 12y ago
  Caltrain runs a screeching loud horn and rumbling noise everywhere it runs. I stayed at a hotel recently (Sequoia Inn, 526 El Camino) - and I was forced to use ear plugs to get any sleep while the Caltrain was running. And I'm a heavy sleeper.
  - was_hellbanned 12y ago
    If I remember correctly, legislation was passed in 2007 requiring trains everywhere in the US to blast their horn four times (length unspecified) before every crossing. The only exceptions are quad-gated crossing (I believe that means a gate covering each lane of traffic on both sides) or in specified "quiet zones". In my area, the trains only get active at around 11:30pm, an continue their racket through the entire night. I'm regularly awakened by needlessly long honking around 4am. It's awful.
- pstrateman 12y ago
  If the tracks were deep underground it would be fine. Of course that would be super expensive though.
- bronson 12y ago
  This is correct, the affluent communities have consistently shot Bart down. Caltrain is just as noisy but has the advantage of existing long before any of the housing tracts. San Francisco and San Jose Railroad service started in 1863.

autism_hurts 12y ago

Bart is supposed to be a figure 8 loop in the bay, or at least a full loop through San jose and up the peninsula. The rich will never let this happen in Palo Alto, atherton, etc.

ghshephard 12y ago

First thing I looked for was, "Bart around the Bay" - nothing there. It's beyond me why nobody has made getting Bart circling the bay a priority, and really is a blight on "Bay Area" transit.

1stranger 12y ago
It is, in a way. The current objective is to get BART to reach San Jose (and maybe Santa Clara) so that you can make a loop with Caltrain. It's hard to see BART ever replacing Caltrain (and eventually the high speed rail line) up the south bay/lower peninsula.
sparkman55 12y ago
Caltrain is already pretty good on the Peninsula. Since the various towns on the Peninsula were founded in the railroad era, the Caltrain stops conveniently in each downtown. Where would a BART line run on the Peninsula? Down 101 from Millbrae? Such a route would cost billions over some of the most expensive real estate in the country, yet wouldn't serve the denser parts of the peninsula well. Modernizing the Caltrain seems like a much better use of money. It's clear from the website that this stuff is very expensive! If we want to dream, a BART extension from Milpitas through Santa Clara (and the new stadium) to link up with the light rail and Caltrain in downtown Mountain View would be awesome, though!
- ak217 12y ago
  Caltrain is not "already pretty good". It has antiquated, overweight trains due to federal requirements and the fact that it shares track with freight traffic. Those trains can't accelerate properly, so those "convenient" stops in each downtown mean the trains can't run with enough frequency. There are not enough trains and too many at grade crossings, which produce severe noise pollution (due to the federal horn sounding requirements). Caltrain is WAY overdue for upgrades. The electrification project, which will solve some but not all of these problems, is in need of a speedup. Many at grade crossings need to be replaced with bridges (and some are being replaced), but because of all the fiefdom-like towns along the way, getting anything done along the right-of-way is a nightmare. Although there is no tractable way to merge Caltrain with BART (because of BART's own foolish planning decisions, such as a custom gauge), and you're right that there is no space for a second right-of-way, there is another neglected project that would benefit here: Dumbarton Rail (http://www.bayrailalliance.org/dumbarton_rail http://www.bayrailalliance.org/dumbarton_rail). At various points it was suggested that either BART or Caltrain should be extended across that bridge - either way, completing that link would add badly needed capacity in a region that has long neglected its traffic infrastructure.

chipsy 12y ago

FYI, former BART Director Robert S. Allen made Internet comments railing against transit-oriented development. [0] One of the underlying attitudes that drives today's transit situation is this notion of segregation via restricted transit access. [0] http://systemicfailure.wordpress.com/2014/10/09/ex-bart-director-says-transit-oriented-development-attracts-thugs/ http://systemicfailure.wordpress.com/2014/10/09/ex-bart-dire...

jesseendahl 12y ago

Where is the option for "24 hour service on Fridays and Saturdays?"

djcapelis 12y ago
"Second transbay tube" and "increased capacity in core" together allow 24/7 BART service. This is a commonly requested thing, and these are the things needed to make it happen.
- jesseendahl 12y ago
  Just noticed that as well. Didn't realize hovering would reveal more info at first. Awesome!
- hueving 12y ago
  Can you explain why more track is needed for a service that doesn't run 24/7 to allow it to run 24/7?
  - jaredsohn 12y ago
    I've heard it stated that one reason BART doesn't run 24/7 is that they regularly need to be able to shut down a track to do maintenance. More track provides redundancy that allows them to redirect traffic from one track to the other when doing maintenance on it. There is more information about this on Quora: http://www.quora.com/Why-does-BART-need-to-do-nightly-maintenance?share=1 http://www.quora.com/Why-does-BART-need-to-do-nightly-mainte...
  - cperciva 12y ago
    I can't speak to BART, but in Vancouver when people ask why our trains don't run 24/7 the answer is always "because we need maintenance windows". Maybe the second transbay tube would allow them to keep one tube open while they do work on the other tube?
  - nrau 12y ago
    BART does not currently run 24/7 primarily because they have to perform maintenance on the system, some of which requires that trains are not running. This is especially the case for the Transbay Tube which requires a lot of attention. If BART had two tubes then they could run 24/7 and still complete the required maintenance with shut down periods staggered at different times for each tube. This would allow the full system to remain running 24/7.

jaysonelliot 12y ago

These kind of pseudo-public-feedback surveys where the solutions available are presented as a limited set of options, all funneling towards what the agency wanted to do in the first place, really bug me. You've got an entrenched bureaucracy that's paralyzed by a dysfunctional relationship with unions and a We've Always Done Things This Way™ mentality presenting what they think are the only options for fixing a system like BART. Not one word about eliminating waste, improving efficiency, or innovation. Just a thinly-veiled complaint about budget shortfalls and an obvious plea for a sales tax increase to fill their coffers. It would be wonderful if BART actually solicited public feedback on ways to improve the system. We're right in the middle of the most vibrant tech corridor in the nation, if not the world. You've got innovators and entrepreneurs that ride the system every day, many of whom would leap at the chance to fix an outdated, bureaucratic culture like the Bay Area Rapid Transit. This is just an advocacy page for a bigger BART budget.

spikels 12y ago
All the choices offered are spend more or tax more. Haven't they been budgeting for the "$$$$$ $" in needed maintenance and repair all along? It appears that BART was never run to be sustainable but would require period bailouts to just survive. We can do better than this!
apsec112 12y ago
Where does all the money go? The Bay Area, and NYC even more so, spend far more than anywhere else in the world for an equivalent level of rail service. The "Central Subway" (only 2 km of tunnel!) will cost $1.6 billion; at the end of the day, that money is going into someone's pocket. Whose? As far as I can tell, nobody in local government has the foggiest idea - the contractors all hide what they're doing under a cloak of darkness. Maybe FOIA should be extended to private contractors for contracts over a certain amount.

aftbit 12y ago

This whole site feels like pure PR to me. BART wants the problems facing them to look huge, and their current funding sources to look massively insufficient.

jmspring 12y ago

Cut the pay to the BART board, do away with life time "free access" passes, and run for longer hours.

jessedhillon 12y ago
So assume there are 200 board members (a stupid number) each having their pay cut by $100k (another stupid number), and each of those have 5 passes for their family members who ride BART every day of the year from one end to the other (about a $10 ride) -- thats $20.365m. Where's the rest of the money going to come from?

ulfw 12y ago

Cleaning up and modernizing trains would be a big one for me. I rode BART again recently for the first time in 17 years and it looked, felt and smelled exactly the same as back in 1998. It's a disgrace for an Alpha-World City. A homeless person was driving back and forth, sleeping on the front seats. The seats and carpet were decades old. How hard can it be to at least modernize/clean the rolling stock, if you're not willing to invest in new ones?

sethhochberg 12y ago
They actually are investing in new ones. http://www.bart.gov/about/projects/cars http://www.bart.gov/about/projects/cars

erikpukinskis 12y ago

Bike cars with dedicated bike racks.

deleted 12y ago

[deleted]

jamesli 12y ago

More parking capacity in the Bart station. A lot of people decide to drive to the city because they cannot find a parking space in some stations. It is not practical for them to walk or bike to the stations due to a variety of difficulties. The extra parking space could be achieved either by converting the basic and space-inefficient one floor parking ramp to two floors, or building a new underground one.

benjiweber 12y ago

For reference here's some plans for the next few years of upgrades to the London Underground https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z3Q0FZUKHkY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z3Q0FZUKHkY

tomlongson 12y ago

I would make single car trains that are built by tesla and go exactly where you need. Need to go directly to Fremont? Get on a train that is routed directly to your destination with other patrons from Embarcadero to Fremont. No unnecessary stops. This would require infrastructure for stations to include "offramps", but with a modular bus system (think uber), your ride would be available at the Fremont station waiting to take you the last few miles.

share1love 12y ago

BART will go to San Jose in 2018 paid for by Santa Clara County tax payers and federal funding. You would still have to take VTA's LRT to the 49ers stadium from the future Milpitas Station.