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It's interesting what a chilling effect the evil "gamergate" people have. By making it clear they target anyone who stands up for women in gaming or for freedo

It's interesting what a chilling effect the evil "gamergate" people have. By making it clear they target anyone who stands up for women in gaming or for freedom of press they have intimidated people who would usually be up front in their support for the people attacked. I hope someone can come up with a sensible strategy for dealing with these trolls. I'd like to see real-world consequences. The article indicates there are "some well known names" involved in the group. Who are they and what companies do they work for? (Written from a throwaway, which says a lot doesn't it?)

uvTwitch 12y ago
This narrative you're pushing here is a very hard sell considering this is one of their most prominent banners: http://www.nichegamer.net/media/2014/09/gamergate.jpg http://www.nichegamer.net/media/2014/09/gamergate.jpg Being the interenet, there are naturally aggressive and violent people who will throw harassment around. With regard to this issue, it is downright false to claim that they originate from, or are encouraged by, any one camp, as there are examples of harassment originating from both sides. One of the more prominent journalists writing articles supporting gamergate was mailed a syringe filled with mystery liquid; far from a friendly gesture. There are, however, a lot of people who wish to paint gamergate as woman-hating trolls - the kind of people in the media who have a lot to lose, who always pick up on these sort of outliers and point to them as the bulk of the movement, to try to distract the public from the real message of gamergate, which is that they want proper ethics and integrity in gaming journalism, not 10/10's for games made by your friends, or articles brazenly insulting your readership.
- PhasmaFelis 12y ago
  It's great that you're interested in promoting journalistic integrity, and not in attacking women. Why, then, don't you start a movement that can credibly claim to support those goals, instead of rallying behind one that was created to attack one woman for completely made-up crimes against journalism? I would love to see someone do this. Corruption in games journalism is a real problem. But it's not a problem that I've ever actually seen a #GamerGate fan attempt to address except when they were spinning it to attack Zoe Quinn or her supporters.
  - imanaccount247 12y ago
    >instead of rallying behind one that was created to attack one woman for completely made-up crimes against journalism? I've seen this statement quite a lot, where exactly are people getting this idea from? #gamergate was started by Adam Baldwin, specifically to address corruption in games journalism and the collusion of media outlets in trying to silence discussion of it. The roots of it go back to /v/ having been convinced game journalism is corrupt for several years. See their musical tribute to games journalism from a year ago for an example (or the dewrito pope meme): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fr7u1tWsGBk&list=PLAX8JHUJcFR2gh_WG3YJBITuO-tODVCcJ&index=23 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fr7u1tWsGBk&list=PLAX8JHUJcF... >But it's not a problem that I've ever actually seen a #GamerGate fan attempt to address Have you ever looked? They have tons of information, they organize out in the open (it was on github until their repo was removed due to complaints), where everyone can see and contribute. #gamergate supporters have been harassed and threatened and Milo was even sent a syringe full of something unknown. Why do people paint such a dishonest picture of this whole thing?
    - throwawayGG 12y ago
      Adam Baldwin also linked hashtag #GamerGate to the anti-feminism movement[1] when "when tweeting links to pre-existing misogynistic corruption conspiracy theory videos surrounding Quinn and Sarkeesian". Maybe it meant something else for a week or two. But it's been associated with this for much longer than anything else. [1] https://twitter.com/AdamBaldwin/status/504801169638567936 https://twitter.com/AdamBaldwin/status/504801169638567936 [2] http://arstechnica.com/gaming/2014/09/new-chat-logs-show-how-4chan-users-pushed-gamergate-into-the-national-spotlight/ http://arstechnica.com/gaming/2014/09/new-chat-logs-show-how...
      - uchi 12y ago
        I'm struggling to see how Adam Baldwin's tweet is linked to an anti-feminist movement. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C5-51PfwI3M https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C5-51PfwI3M https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pKmy5OKg6lo&list=UUWB0dvorHvkQlgfGGJR2yxQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pKmy5OKg6lo&list=UUWB0dvorHv... Those are the two videos he links to. There's nothing anti-feminist about them.
- throwawayGG 12y ago
  Yeah, that banner is bullshit - as far as I can see it is completely ignored by the majority of people supporting gamergate. The linked thread on reddit is full of people complaining about "SJW" - social justice warriors. These are equated with feminists and are widely condemned by GamerGaters. Attacks on women in gaming dominate the headlines on the linked subreddit[1], and it's pretty clear that problems they have "biased and corrupt" all revolve around the reporting of women in gaming. Perhaps there is a problem with biased and corrupt game reporting. I wouldn't know, but as far as I can see #gamergate is just using it as an excuse for misogynistic behaviour. [1] http://www.reddit.com/r/KotakuInAction/ http://www.reddit.com/r/KotakuInAction/
  - uvTwitch 12y ago
    Browsing that subreddit, it seems to very effectively disprove your claims. Nobody is complaining about 'women', they are complaining about shitty people. You don't get a pass from being a shitty person just because of your gender. Furthermore, #2 of the subreddit's rules: "Do not be a dick to anyone. Harass anybody, and you're out. We don't want your kind, here." Social Justice Warriors are vilified because of their fanatical, hateful, exclusionary behavior. They are called 'warriors' and not 'advocates' for a reason. If you can only see gamergate as an excuse for misogyny, then I'd say you're only looking for that, and ignoring anything else you find, because poor behavior like that is universally condemned within the movement.
- tehwebguy 12y ago
  Probably because they only decided that "integrity in game journalism" was a worthy cause when they decided that a woman paid for a review with sex.
  - uvTwitch 12y ago
    This is provably false. There was plenty of outrage over the 'dorito pope' incident: http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/dorito-pope http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/dorito-pope and over the firing of Jeff Gerstmann over his Kane and Lynch review: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeff_Gerstmann http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeff_Gerstmann The reason this incident blew up is that, when people complained about it, journalists who were friends of the accused decided to publish a series of attack pieces painting gamers as nothing but woman hating adult children in response, thus igniting the current fire.
- fenomas 12y ago
  Neither side of things is that simple. While people who openly support gamergate now focus on journalism and condemn misogynistic threats, a look at GG's origins (e.g. the #burgersandfries IRC logs, which as much as anything else started the whole thing[1]), reveals plenty to abhor - way more discussion of how to effectively character-assassinate Zoe Quinn and Anita Sarkeesian than of how to reform games journalism, anyway. If the "real message" of the movement is now completely removed from that, that's great, but I don't think the idea that misogynistic threats have no connection to the "real" gamergate stands up to scrutiny. [1] http://puu.sh/boAEC/f072f259b6.txt http://puu.sh/boAEC/f072f259b6.txt
  - uchi 12y ago
    Hello my friend. I'm actually present in the logs. And we do talk quite a bit about how to spread awareness towards the corruption in video game journalism. The logs aren't for the fainthearted because people say stupid things and spout memes, myself included. But everything is there. Trying to say "look! it's in the logs!" then linking to thousands of lines of text is kind of silly. The logs will also prove that the logs Zoe Quinn is spreading around are cherrypicked and edited. But that would require actually reading thousands of lines of text, which I'm sure neither you nor anyone willing to listen to the opposing viewpoint is willing to do. The "secret club" is on rizon, in the #burgersandfries channel, and yes, we kept the old name. You're free to drop in and chat any time.
  - uvTwitch 12y ago
    I argue that, while sparked from the same incident, gamergate is not the same as the childish harassment you refer to. It's rallying cry has always been "game journalism ethics" , and never "women get out". I would ask the rhetorical question of why journalists continue to focus on claims of gamergate members harassing women, and give no lip service to the gamergate claims of poor journalistic integrity, and a lack of ethics.
  - Malician 12y ago
    TotalBiscuit supports GG, and he's the most trustworthy person reporting on games out there. (He's also received threats for his stance, though he did not receive a series of news articles reporting them.) https://twitter.com/Totalbiscuit/status/520247895996395520 https://twitter.com/Totalbiscuit/status/520247895996395520
- acdha 12y ago
  Here's the problem: #gamergate started as part of a harassment campaign against Zoe Quinn, closely following a round of attacks on Anita Sarkeesian[1] by many of the same people. The journalism bit was a valid issue latter adopted as a shield against criticism from the attacks at those women, several journalists and anyone else who spoke up against the abuse. Then they jumped in bed with the Breitbart crew, who were never particularly fond of gamers in the past but love free attention and attacks on feminists and other perceived enemies. Things like the image you linked to were invented well after the shitstorm was in full swing as part of that distraction campaign, as were the hundreds of fake accounts registered on Twitter, etc. in the last couple months which use very similar language and pictures to either make attacks or deliver excuses or historical revisionism – amusingly, often trying both from the same account as in e.g. https://twitter.com/frankcifaldi/status/521117712844468224 https://twitter.com/frankcifaldi/status/521117712844468224. There's simply no way to recover from the tainted roots of that movement. I have no doubt that there are people who really do care about the quality of gaming journalism or the public reputation of gamers but they're simply being used at this point in the same way that someone who shows up at a PETA-organized rally expecting to talk about sustainable farming. If you actually care about any of those issues, stop volunteering your time and reputation as a shield for #gamergate. Let the extremists deal with the mess while you write about ethics without having to get distracted by the grenades being tossed by the people you're choosing to ally with. 1. See e.g. http://www.newyorker.com/tech/elements/zoe-quinns-depression-quest http://www.newyorker.com/tech/elements/zoe-quinns-depression..., http://gawker.com/what-is-gamergate-and-why-an-explainer-for-non-geeks-1642909080 http://gawker.com/what-is-gamergate-and-why-an-explainer-for..., etc.
  - uvTwitch 12y ago
    That's one way to tell the story. Here's another: Zoe's disgruntled ex-partner decided to publicly air a lot of dirty laundry after he'd discovered she'd been unfaithful to him. This is childish behavior, but the thing that caught people's attention was his claim that she'd intentionally slept with the editors of gaming publications to receive positive coverage, which turned out to be true. Caught with their pants down, instead of doing the decent thing and apologizing, the editors in question rallied their friends, and published articles decrying gamers as woman-hating children, and declaring that they were 'dead' and 'over' - essentially, insulting their audience for daring to accuse them of poor ethics. This was understandably offensive to previously loyal readers, being attacked because of their hobbies, and so the movement was born - coined #gamergate by Adam Baldwin, but helmed by none. Images like that banner were created as a response to the repeated attempts to discredit the movement as nothing more than a woman-hatting harassment campaign, as was the sister hashtag #notyourshield, in which plenty of minorities of all genders showed their support, and disproved the claims that it was just a bunch of hateful white men. re: your links. Gawker Media are well known as having a vested interest in painting gamergate as a hate movement; their site Kotaku plays host to one of the accused PR-for-sex journalists, they have posted numerous attack pieces, and in return have had several of their sponsors pull out due to gamergater's emails. They are desperate to paint gamergate as a hate campaign, because they badly want it to go away and stop hurting their revenue. Gamergaters generally want people to stop focusing on women's sex lives, and pay more attention to the actions and lack of integrity of the journalists involved.
imanaccount247 12y ago
How have they made that clear exactly? By condemning the actions of the tiny number of people being abusive? The tiny number of people who have nothing to do with "gamergate" in the first place? Do you seriously not have any moral qualms about lying about millions of people and claiming they target and intimidate people? If you are going to make claims like that, you need to back it up with evidence. You can't just claim one sick person's actions are the fault of some other group of people.
- throwawayGG 12y ago
  You can't just claim one sick person's actions are the fault of some other group of people. Actually I can. That group of people acts as an enabling environment, making the behaviour seem less extreme to those associated in that group. Do you seriously not have any moral qualms about lying about millions of people and claiming they target and intimidate people? I don't see these "millions of people" actively working to make sure the person making those threats is found and brought to justice. Instead, I see lots of them going "yeah, that bad, but the other side did...." or "hey look, she was logged onto 8chan. She probably did it herself" or at best "We shouldn't say too much until we know who did it". I'll condemn that behaviour all day (behind the safety of my throwaway account)
  - uchi 12y ago
    "You can't just claim one sick person's actions are the fault of some other group of people. Actually I can. That group of people acts as an enabling environment, making the behaviour seem less extreme to those associated in that group. Do you seriously not have any moral qualms about lying about millions of people and claiming they target and intimidate people? I don't see these "millions of people" actively working to make sure the person making those threats is found and brought to justice. I'll condemn that behaviour all day (behind the safety of my throwaway account)" The actions of a few do not invalidate an entire group of people. Take a step back, and realize that you are literally using the same exact argument as islamophobes. And no, I'm not saying this behind the safety of a throwaway account because I'm not afraid of you, or random internet trolls willing to call me names.
  - 12y ago

uvTwitch 12y ago

This narrative you're pushing here is a very hard sell considering this is one of their most prominent banners: http://www.nichegamer.net/media/2014/09/gamergate.jpg http://www.nichegamer.net/media/2014/09/gamergate.jpg Being the interenet, there are naturally aggressive and violent people who will throw harassment around. With regard to this issue, it is downright false to claim that they originate from, or are encouraged by, any one camp, as there are examples of harassment originating from both sides. One of the more prominent journalists writing articles supporting gamergate was mailed a syringe filled with mystery liquid; far from a friendly gesture. There are, however, a lot of people who wish to paint gamergate as woman-hating trolls - the kind of people in the media who have a lot to lose, who always pick up on these sort of outliers and point to them as the bulk of the movement, to try to distract the public from the real message of gamergate, which is that they want proper ethics and integrity in gaming journalism, not 10/10's for games made by your friends, or articles brazenly insulting your readership.

PhasmaFelis 12y ago
It's great that you're interested in promoting journalistic integrity, and not in attacking women. Why, then, don't you start a movement that can credibly claim to support those goals, instead of rallying behind one that was created to attack one woman for completely made-up crimes against journalism? I would love to see someone do this. Corruption in games journalism is a real problem. But it's not a problem that I've ever actually seen a #GamerGate fan attempt to address except when they were spinning it to attack Zoe Quinn or her supporters.
- imanaccount247 12y ago
  >instead of rallying behind one that was created to attack one woman for completely made-up crimes against journalism? I've seen this statement quite a lot, where exactly are people getting this idea from? #gamergate was started by Adam Baldwin, specifically to address corruption in games journalism and the collusion of media outlets in trying to silence discussion of it. The roots of it go back to /v/ having been convinced game journalism is corrupt for several years. See their musical tribute to games journalism from a year ago for an example (or the dewrito pope meme): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fr7u1tWsGBk&list=PLAX8JHUJcFR2gh_WG3YJBITuO-tODVCcJ&index=23 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fr7u1tWsGBk&list=PLAX8JHUJcF... >But it's not a problem that I've ever actually seen a #GamerGate fan attempt to address Have you ever looked? They have tons of information, they organize out in the open (it was on github until their repo was removed due to complaints), where everyone can see and contribute. #gamergate supporters have been harassed and threatened and Milo was even sent a syringe full of something unknown. Why do people paint such a dishonest picture of this whole thing?
  - throwawayGG 12y ago
    Adam Baldwin also linked hashtag #GamerGate to the anti-feminism movement[1] when "when tweeting links to pre-existing misogynistic corruption conspiracy theory videos surrounding Quinn and Sarkeesian". Maybe it meant something else for a week or two. But it's been associated with this for much longer than anything else. [1] https://twitter.com/AdamBaldwin/status/504801169638567936 https://twitter.com/AdamBaldwin/status/504801169638567936 [2] http://arstechnica.com/gaming/2014/09/new-chat-logs-show-how-4chan-users-pushed-gamergate-into-the-national-spotlight/ http://arstechnica.com/gaming/2014/09/new-chat-logs-show-how...
    - uchi 12y ago
      I'm struggling to see how Adam Baldwin's tweet is linked to an anti-feminist movement. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C5-51PfwI3M https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C5-51PfwI3M https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pKmy5OKg6lo&list=UUWB0dvorHvkQlgfGGJR2yxQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pKmy5OKg6lo&list=UUWB0dvorHv... Those are the two videos he links to. There's nothing anti-feminist about them.
throwawayGG 12y ago
Yeah, that banner is bullshit - as far as I can see it is completely ignored by the majority of people supporting gamergate. The linked thread on reddit is full of people complaining about "SJW" - social justice warriors. These are equated with feminists and are widely condemned by GamerGaters. Attacks on women in gaming dominate the headlines on the linked subreddit[1], and it's pretty clear that problems they have "biased and corrupt" all revolve around the reporting of women in gaming. Perhaps there is a problem with biased and corrupt game reporting. I wouldn't know, but as far as I can see #gamergate is just using it as an excuse for misogynistic behaviour. [1] http://www.reddit.com/r/KotakuInAction/ http://www.reddit.com/r/KotakuInAction/
- uvTwitch 12y ago
  Browsing that subreddit, it seems to very effectively disprove your claims. Nobody is complaining about 'women', they are complaining about shitty people. You don't get a pass from being a shitty person just because of your gender. Furthermore, #2 of the subreddit's rules: "Do not be a dick to anyone. Harass anybody, and you're out. We don't want your kind, here." Social Justice Warriors are vilified because of their fanatical, hateful, exclusionary behavior. They are called 'warriors' and not 'advocates' for a reason. If you can only see gamergate as an excuse for misogyny, then I'd say you're only looking for that, and ignoring anything else you find, because poor behavior like that is universally condemned within the movement.
tehwebguy 12y ago
Probably because they only decided that "integrity in game journalism" was a worthy cause when they decided that a woman paid for a review with sex.
- uvTwitch 12y ago
  This is provably false. There was plenty of outrage over the 'dorito pope' incident: http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/dorito-pope http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/dorito-pope and over the firing of Jeff Gerstmann over his Kane and Lynch review: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeff_Gerstmann http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeff_Gerstmann The reason this incident blew up is that, when people complained about it, journalists who were friends of the accused decided to publish a series of attack pieces painting gamers as nothing but woman hating adult children in response, thus igniting the current fire.
fenomas 12y ago
Neither side of things is that simple. While people who openly support gamergate now focus on journalism and condemn misogynistic threats, a look at GG's origins (e.g. the #burgersandfries IRC logs, which as much as anything else started the whole thing[1]), reveals plenty to abhor - way more discussion of how to effectively character-assassinate Zoe Quinn and Anita Sarkeesian than of how to reform games journalism, anyway. If the "real message" of the movement is now completely removed from that, that's great, but I don't think the idea that misogynistic threats have no connection to the "real" gamergate stands up to scrutiny. [1] http://puu.sh/boAEC/f072f259b6.txt http://puu.sh/boAEC/f072f259b6.txt
- uchi 12y ago
  Hello my friend. I'm actually present in the logs. And we do talk quite a bit about how to spread awareness towards the corruption in video game journalism. The logs aren't for the fainthearted because people say stupid things and spout memes, myself included. But everything is there. Trying to say "look! it's in the logs!" then linking to thousands of lines of text is kind of silly. The logs will also prove that the logs Zoe Quinn is spreading around are cherrypicked and edited. But that would require actually reading thousands of lines of text, which I'm sure neither you nor anyone willing to listen to the opposing viewpoint is willing to do. The "secret club" is on rizon, in the #burgersandfries channel, and yes, we kept the old name. You're free to drop in and chat any time.
- uvTwitch 12y ago
  I argue that, while sparked from the same incident, gamergate is not the same as the childish harassment you refer to. It's rallying cry has always been "game journalism ethics" , and never "women get out". I would ask the rhetorical question of why journalists continue to focus on claims of gamergate members harassing women, and give no lip service to the gamergate claims of poor journalistic integrity, and a lack of ethics.
- Malician 12y ago
  TotalBiscuit supports GG, and he's the most trustworthy person reporting on games out there. (He's also received threats for his stance, though he did not receive a series of news articles reporting them.) https://twitter.com/Totalbiscuit/status/520247895996395520 https://twitter.com/Totalbiscuit/status/520247895996395520
acdha 12y ago
Here's the problem: #gamergate started as part of a harassment campaign against Zoe Quinn, closely following a round of attacks on Anita Sarkeesian[1] by many of the same people. The journalism bit was a valid issue latter adopted as a shield against criticism from the attacks at those women, several journalists and anyone else who spoke up against the abuse. Then they jumped in bed with the Breitbart crew, who were never particularly fond of gamers in the past but love free attention and attacks on feminists and other perceived enemies. Things like the image you linked to were invented well after the shitstorm was in full swing as part of that distraction campaign, as were the hundreds of fake accounts registered on Twitter, etc. in the last couple months which use very similar language and pictures to either make attacks or deliver excuses or historical revisionism – amusingly, often trying both from the same account as in e.g. https://twitter.com/frankcifaldi/status/521117712844468224 https://twitter.com/frankcifaldi/status/521117712844468224. There's simply no way to recover from the tainted roots of that movement. I have no doubt that there are people who really do care about the quality of gaming journalism or the public reputation of gamers but they're simply being used at this point in the same way that someone who shows up at a PETA-organized rally expecting to talk about sustainable farming. If you actually care about any of those issues, stop volunteering your time and reputation as a shield for #gamergate. Let the extremists deal with the mess while you write about ethics without having to get distracted by the grenades being tossed by the people you're choosing to ally with. 1. See e.g. http://www.newyorker.com/tech/elements/zoe-quinns-depression-quest http://www.newyorker.com/tech/elements/zoe-quinns-depression..., http://gawker.com/what-is-gamergate-and-why-an-explainer-for-non-geeks-1642909080 http://gawker.com/what-is-gamergate-and-why-an-explainer-for..., etc.
- uvTwitch 12y ago
  That's one way to tell the story. Here's another: Zoe's disgruntled ex-partner decided to publicly air a lot of dirty laundry after he'd discovered she'd been unfaithful to him. This is childish behavior, but the thing that caught people's attention was his claim that she'd intentionally slept with the editors of gaming publications to receive positive coverage, which turned out to be true. Caught with their pants down, instead of doing the decent thing and apologizing, the editors in question rallied their friends, and published articles decrying gamers as woman-hating children, and declaring that they were 'dead' and 'over' - essentially, insulting their audience for daring to accuse them of poor ethics. This was understandably offensive to previously loyal readers, being attacked because of their hobbies, and so the movement was born - coined #gamergate by Adam Baldwin, but helmed by none. Images like that banner were created as a response to the repeated attempts to discredit the movement as nothing more than a woman-hatting harassment campaign, as was the sister hashtag #notyourshield, in which plenty of minorities of all genders showed their support, and disproved the claims that it was just a bunch of hateful white men. re: your links. Gawker Media are well known as having a vested interest in painting gamergate as a hate movement; their site Kotaku plays host to one of the accused PR-for-sex journalists, they have posted numerous attack pieces, and in return have had several of their sponsors pull out due to gamergater's emails. They are desperate to paint gamergate as a hate campaign, because they badly want it to go away and stop hurting their revenue. Gamergaters generally want people to stop focusing on women's sex lives, and pay more attention to the actions and lack of integrity of the journalists involved.

imanaccount247 12y ago

How have they made that clear exactly? By condemning the actions of the tiny number of people being abusive? The tiny number of people who have nothing to do with "gamergate" in the first place? Do you seriously not have any moral qualms about lying about millions of people and claiming they target and intimidate people? If you are going to make claims like that, you need to back it up with evidence. You can't just claim one sick person's actions are the fault of some other group of people.

throwawayGG 12y ago
You can't just claim one sick person's actions are the fault of some other group of people. Actually I can. That group of people acts as an enabling environment, making the behaviour seem less extreme to those associated in that group. Do you seriously not have any moral qualms about lying about millions of people and claiming they target and intimidate people? I don't see these "millions of people" actively working to make sure the person making those threats is found and brought to justice. Instead, I see lots of them going "yeah, that bad, but the other side did...." or "hey look, she was logged onto 8chan. She probably did it herself" or at best "We shouldn't say too much until we know who did it". I'll condemn that behaviour all day (behind the safety of my throwaway account)
- uchi 12y ago
  "You can't just claim one sick person's actions are the fault of some other group of people. Actually I can. That group of people acts as an enabling environment, making the behaviour seem less extreme to those associated in that group. Do you seriously not have any moral qualms about lying about millions of people and claiming they target and intimidate people? I don't see these "millions of people" actively working to make sure the person making those threats is found and brought to justice. I'll condemn that behaviour all day (behind the safety of my throwaway account)" The actions of a few do not invalidate an entire group of people. Take a step back, and realize that you are literally using the same exact argument as islamophobes. And no, I'm not saying this behind the safety of a throwaway account because I'm not afraid of you, or random internet trolls willing to call me names.
- 12y ago