6 ms·

What I Saw as an NFL Ball Boy

106 points by jhonovich 12y ago

thebiglebrewski 12y ago
This is revealing, but really unsure how this relates to Hacker News
- ygra 12y ago
  Given that it's on the front page it's interesting to enough people, apparently.
- bdcravens 12y ago
  Same could be said of article about Alexander the Great's father article, also on home page.
- IvyMike 12y ago
  Note that the weekend frontpage tends to be less tech related than the weekday frontpage--both because I think the actual news sources aren't publishing as much, and because of a general "it's the weekend and we're kicking back and taking a break from the hardcore technical articles" mood. That doesn't mean the articles aren't still interesting--just that they tend to tackle more diverse topics.
drawkbox 12y ago
I think they could do much more for players to help them. - Weight limits in the NFL. I know linemen need to get big but the average weight of linemen is way too high. - The padding is almost too good, concussions will go up as they have with better equipment. Players feel too safe to unleash a hit. There needs to be more alerting/warning systems on collisions. i.e. if a player is about to get blindsided, alert them inside the helmet. Give them eyes all around. - All linemen should use knee braces all the time or improved support. Players remove padding because others do to stay competitive. There needs to be more support for knees/ankles that is required. (smaller linemen will help this) - Testing for HGH is finally in, this will help some. - Allow players to use marijuana, for pain and for calming rather than DUIs. They treat players like children so they end up lashing out. - Provide drivers free of charge for all NFL players for all activities. Require that they use the drivers (they can personally hire them) if they are having fun but DUIs should not be allowed.
- cafard 12y ago
  I suspect that the weight limit could be brought down by changing the rules on substitution. Could you play both sides of the ball and still weigh 300 lb.? I don't know about the padding. The players from an earlier and less protected era of pro football still ended up in pretty bad shape. Some may have escaped dementia simply by dying younger.
- paddy_m 12y ago
  The drivers already have a number to call for a free ride home at any time. There is no excuse for them to get DUIs
- euphemize 12y ago
  No NFL player would ever want to have an "alert in their helmet" if they're about to get hit. That sounds horrible and panic-inducing more than anything else. The NFL needs to follow other leagues, like the NHL, and simply ban dangerous hits to the head and blindsided hits altogether. There's a lot of resistance, but it's slowly making a difference. Enforcing knee braces, putting weight limits for linemen and making an exception for marijuana will also never work IMO. Also, players have access to very strong pain killers via team doctors, they don't need marijuana for pain.
  - drawkbox 12y ago
    By alert in the helmet, I wasn't talking about a jarring alarm. I meant some sort of visual system and/or possibly vibration. This would some how work in coordination with other helmets to be aware of distances and speeds of other helmets. Maybe even something like HUDs in games that have the indicator overlays in the corners or mini map type system for receivers. If we are alerting in our cars of collisions why not the same type of impact on the field? These can be life changing moments, split seconds matter. The NFL should do some of the other items for safety/health (weight/padding/indicators) if they truly care more about the player on the field than treating them like a child off the field. I think many of the problems with athletes would be solved if they relaxed their harshness off the field and used that on the field. If every lineman that plays gets knee and ankle troubles for life, maybe they should limit weight and require braces and better equipment.
brohoolio 12y ago
Just another reason that I'm glad I gave up watching football. The injuries took the enjoyment out of the game for me. I get nauseous when I see a hit that gives someone a concussion. Maybe it's my own sports injuries that contribute to my difficulty watching the game now. Whenever someone's leg gets the wrong way I remember the feeling I felt when my arm got bent the wrong way. The NFL feels like pro wrestling to me now. All the cheering the league does for the military and knowing that the league is a not for profit and doesn't pay taxes to support the troops makes me sick. The domestic violence and corresponding punishment over the last couple years also makes me sick. One day my entire commute home was sports talk guys reading off players that didn't get punished for strangling children, knocking out wives, etc. Then I open up the paper and it's football players rapes someone and doesn't get investigated. High school football players sexual torture freshmen. Ugh.
- ENOTTY 12y ago
  All profits to the NFL are distributed back to the teams, which do pay income taxes. All the players and staff also pay income taxes.
  - bmelton 12y ago
    Thank you. It's disturbing to see so many people insist that the NFL doesn't "deserve" to be a non-profit, because they don't give enough to charity. They're a 501c6, not a 501c3. C6 is not intended to be a charitable organization, but to act as a trade organization, business league, etc. They quite clearly meet the definition of what a 501C6 is intended to be, and it's also quite clear that they aren't "dodging" anything in the way of taxes. If there's a discussion to be had on the matter, it's whether or not 501C6s even ought to exist, or whether there ought to be constraints on their existence (e.g., in order to encourage business development, a 501C6 may exist until captured revenues reach a fixed amount, or something to that extent) but it's clear that the NFL is not only eligible, but the very archetype for what a C6 organization ought to be.
    - brohoolio 12y ago
      http://www.forbes.com/sites/tomwatson/2014/01/30/the-real-super-bowl-question-should-the-nfl-be-a-nonprofit/ http://www.forbes.com/sites/tomwatson/2014/01/30/the-real-su... "When you consider how many pro stadiums – like MetLife MET -1.23% Stadium in the swamps of Jersey – are at least partially subsidized by public dollars, a Federal tax exemption for the professional league – really a joint venture of 32 other businesses and their investors – seems obscene. As Nina Ippolito wrote in PolicyMic: As a 501(c)6, the NFL isn’t supposed to engage in business “ordinarily carried on for profit.” Apparently, licensing exorbitantly priced apparel, granting broadcast rights, and running an entire television network don’t count as profitable endeavors."
ajtaylor 12y ago
What's sad to me is to read that the writer is happy to have a permanently damaged knee in exchange for a few years of playing football. Personally I can't see how it would be worth it. I need to walk, run and cycle every day for the rest of my life. I don't need to play football.
- DigitalJack 12y ago
  So you are sad that someone else is happy because what makes them happy isn't what makes you happy.
  - ajtaylor 12y ago
    I'm sad that people incur permanent, potentially life changing injuries from the game, not because I want to push my views on them.
  - jlebar 12y ago
    Well, sure. In the limit, I'd be sad if a large portion of humanity chose to use the experience machine [1]. More realistically, I'm sad that Americans spend so much time watching TV, even if it makes them happy. I think I can at once support this guy's ability to make choices for himself and be saddened that our culture may have socialized him into making a tradeoff that I don't think was worthwhile, in some objective sense. Perhaps the test I mean is, suppose football didn't exist and then you walked up to this guy in the present day, explained what football is, and then gave him the choice to relive his life starting from high school, but this time with football and all the (positive and negative) consequences he faced. It seems likely to me that he'd reject this out of hand. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Experience_machine http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Experience_machine
- sehr 12y ago
  In my experience, the actual sport I was playing was less important than those I played it with. There's a lot more to it than just 'playing football'
  - 12y ago
mbesto 12y ago
They're measuring all of the head issues at Stanford: http://espn.go.com/espn/otl/story/_/id/8311371/significant-advances-being-made-concussion-research-universities-nationwide http://espn.go.com/espn/otl/story/_/id/8311371/significant-a...
spikels 12y ago
I think fufilling a lifelong dream to play pro football and the minimum salary of $420,000 explains why there are thousands of people lined up to take these jobs despite the well known health risks. BTW - The incidence of alcohol related arrest for NFL players mentioned, while in my opinion excessive, is probably below average for young US males which is prob over 2% per year for DUI alone. What's amazing is how common this is in general - 1 in 139 licensed drivers each year are arrested for DUI. http://www.duifoundation.org/research/facts/ http://www.duifoundation.org/research/facts/
- analog31 12y ago
  What disturbs me is that the training has to start before kids are really old enough to weigh the risks and returns. The net-present-value of aspiring to a pro football career is probably in the neighborhood of 10 bucks when the actual probability of success is considered. It could even be negative due to the effect of those concussions. And it's unfathomable that the concussions don't have some progressive effect starting on day one. This is one of those cases where you have a seemingly infinitesimal probability of a seemingly infinite outcome. I think that folks just have a very hard time thinking about that kind of situation rationally.
  - baddox 12y ago
    > What disturbs me is that the training has to start before kids are really old enough to weigh the risks and returns. Presumably the vast majority of football players in high school don't even intend to play in college, much less professionally. I don't have any data, and I know there have been some high-profile tragedies in high school football, but I would guess that injuries are much rarer in high school.
    - analog31 12y ago
      While the news-making injuries are probably more rare, I'm concerned that a constant succession of low grade concussions might have a cumulative effect that I wouldn't wish on my own kids. Not that either of them is a prospect for playing football at any level. Instead, they're engaged in an activity with a roughly equal chance of professional success -- playing classical music. But at least I can send them to practice without wondering if it will set them back mentally, with symptoms that show up 30 to 50 years later.
index0 12y ago
I really don't these kind of articles because in actuality NFL players live longer and are less like to commit crime then the average male. On paper there's no story here and usually that's enough for HN. Writers and journalists can easily pick on these athletes because they generally don't have the literary facilities to defend the choices they've made in the same Op-Ed fashion and I'll be frank and say jealousy is playing a large role here. All jobs take a mental and physical toll. Most jobs aren't fulfilling or notable in any way and the existential terror of living like that is a much great strain on the psyche then getting a few concussions. The average overweight, underemployed American likes to believe he's better off then someone who has unflinchingly been same thing since freshman year of high-school, maybe he is, maybe he isn't, either way it's a consoling thought while distractedly surfing the net. When it comes down to it these players are responsible for their own safety and unless you're willing to submit to the same diet and exercise regime as they do, don't criticize them they don't deserve it.
- wutangson1 12y ago
  Great reply! The article really smacks of hype and sensationalism. There is no need to lie awake at night obsessing over the ammonium "smelling salts" he provided. Those ampules cannot help you if you are injured.
- darkerside 12y ago
  Criticize? I didn't see that in the article. Your 19 minute old account, with its oddly oblique responses to the article's actual points, makes me very suspicious.
- mburns 12y ago
  >in actuality NFL players live longer ... then the average male http://www.boston.com/lifestyle/health/2013/01/29/nfl-players-union-and-harvard-team-landmark-study-football-injuries-and-illness/aCGnf96h7ptWX2Lnp5MIiP/story.html http://www.boston.com/lifestyle/health/2013/01/29/nfl-player... The NFL seems to disagree. Do you have a citation to back up your claim?
bkjelden 12y ago
I've been thinking lately if it would be possible to create a variant of football that was just as exciting without the collisions and violence. Most of what makes me like football more than other sports can be summed up into the following: * Effort matters more than talent - talented teams that are not focused can be upset by less talented teams that are playing harder * Team game - since it's 11v11 and not 5v5, with a few rare exceptions, no one player can make a team. Everyone has to be working together to win. * Drama - every game is just a game. no best of 3, best of 5, etc. This combines with the first point to make every game worth watching. * Strategy - The chess match of how an offense matches up against a defense, how coordinators will use their players' distinct skills to exploit the other team's weaknesses, etc, is fascinating. * Variety of athletes - I was an offensive lineman when I played football in my younger years, and to put it nicely, I have an offensive lineman's build. So I've always enjoyed that football utilizes a variety of athletes that are skilled in more ways than just speed. So would it be possible to put all of these, except maybe the last, into a new game that didn't cause brain damage? I think so, I'm just not sure what that game would look like. I sure hope football can get this figured out, because for all of the bad attention it's been getting lately, it is still a sport that brings a lot of happiness to a lot of people.
- webnrrd2k 12y ago
  Soccer?
- notatoad 12y ago
  I think what you call "effort" in the first point could probably also be called violence. Things like How fast you can run and how far you can throw are skill based, the only non skill based aspect of the game that I can think of is how hard you're willing to hit.
  - brusch 12y ago
    There are some players who are not necessarily the best athletes on the team, but can excel with better instincts or a better way to analyze the game. But in the NFL the level of athleticism is so high - obviously there aren't any bad athletes in there. If you know exactly where to run beats running (a little) faster.

106 points by jhonovich 12y ago

thebiglebrewski 12y ago

This is revealing, but really unsure how this relates to Hacker News

ygra 12y ago
Given that it's on the front page it's interesting to enough people, apparently.
bdcravens 12y ago
Same could be said of article about Alexander the Great's father article, also on home page.
IvyMike 12y ago
Note that the weekend frontpage tends to be less tech related than the weekday frontpage--both because I think the actual news sources aren't publishing as much, and because of a general "it's the weekend and we're kicking back and taking a break from the hardcore technical articles" mood. That doesn't mean the articles aren't still interesting--just that they tend to tackle more diverse topics.

drawkbox 12y ago

I think they could do much more for players to help them. - Weight limits in the NFL. I know linemen need to get big but the average weight of linemen is way too high. - The padding is almost too good, concussions will go up as they have with better equipment. Players feel too safe to unleash a hit. There needs to be more alerting/warning systems on collisions. i.e. if a player is about to get blindsided, alert them inside the helmet. Give them eyes all around. - All linemen should use knee braces all the time or improved support. Players remove padding because others do to stay competitive. There needs to be more support for knees/ankles that is required. (smaller linemen will help this) - Testing for HGH is finally in, this will help some. - Allow players to use marijuana, for pain and for calming rather than DUIs. They treat players like children so they end up lashing out. - Provide drivers free of charge for all NFL players for all activities. Require that they use the drivers (they can personally hire them) if they are having fun but DUIs should not be allowed.

cafard 12y ago
I suspect that the weight limit could be brought down by changing the rules on substitution. Could you play both sides of the ball and still weigh 300 lb.? I don't know about the padding. The players from an earlier and less protected era of pro football still ended up in pretty bad shape. Some may have escaped dementia simply by dying younger.
paddy_m 12y ago
The drivers already have a number to call for a free ride home at any time. There is no excuse for them to get DUIs
euphemize 12y ago
No NFL player would ever want to have an "alert in their helmet" if they're about to get hit. That sounds horrible and panic-inducing more than anything else. The NFL needs to follow other leagues, like the NHL, and simply ban dangerous hits to the head and blindsided hits altogether. There's a lot of resistance, but it's slowly making a difference. Enforcing knee braces, putting weight limits for linemen and making an exception for marijuana will also never work IMO. Also, players have access to very strong pain killers via team doctors, they don't need marijuana for pain.
- drawkbox 12y ago
  By alert in the helmet, I wasn't talking about a jarring alarm. I meant some sort of visual system and/or possibly vibration. This would some how work in coordination with other helmets to be aware of distances and speeds of other helmets. Maybe even something like HUDs in games that have the indicator overlays in the corners or mini map type system for receivers. If we are alerting in our cars of collisions why not the same type of impact on the field? These can be life changing moments, split seconds matter. The NFL should do some of the other items for safety/health (weight/padding/indicators) if they truly care more about the player on the field than treating them like a child off the field. I think many of the problems with athletes would be solved if they relaxed their harshness off the field and used that on the field. If every lineman that plays gets knee and ankle troubles for life, maybe they should limit weight and require braces and better equipment.

brohoolio 12y ago

Just another reason that I'm glad I gave up watching football. The injuries took the enjoyment out of the game for me. I get nauseous when I see a hit that gives someone a concussion. Maybe it's my own sports injuries that contribute to my difficulty watching the game now. Whenever someone's leg gets the wrong way I remember the feeling I felt when my arm got bent the wrong way. The NFL feels like pro wrestling to me now. All the cheering the league does for the military and knowing that the league is a not for profit and doesn't pay taxes to support the troops makes me sick. The domestic violence and corresponding punishment over the last couple years also makes me sick. One day my entire commute home was sports talk guys reading off players that didn't get punished for strangling children, knocking out wives, etc. Then I open up the paper and it's football players rapes someone and doesn't get investigated. High school football players sexual torture freshmen. Ugh.

ENOTTY 12y ago
All profits to the NFL are distributed back to the teams, which do pay income taxes. All the players and staff also pay income taxes.
- bmelton 12y ago
  Thank you. It's disturbing to see so many people insist that the NFL doesn't "deserve" to be a non-profit, because they don't give enough to charity. They're a 501c6, not a 501c3. C6 is not intended to be a charitable organization, but to act as a trade organization, business league, etc. They quite clearly meet the definition of what a 501C6 is intended to be, and it's also quite clear that they aren't "dodging" anything in the way of taxes. If there's a discussion to be had on the matter, it's whether or not 501C6s even ought to exist, or whether there ought to be constraints on their existence (e.g., in order to encourage business development, a 501C6 may exist until captured revenues reach a fixed amount, or something to that extent) but it's clear that the NFL is not only eligible, but the very archetype for what a C6 organization ought to be.
  - brohoolio 12y ago
    http://www.forbes.com/sites/tomwatson/2014/01/30/the-real-super-bowl-question-should-the-nfl-be-a-nonprofit/ http://www.forbes.com/sites/tomwatson/2014/01/30/the-real-su... "When you consider how many pro stadiums – like MetLife MET -1.23% Stadium in the swamps of Jersey – are at least partially subsidized by public dollars, a Federal tax exemption for the professional league – really a joint venture of 32 other businesses and their investors – seems obscene. As Nina Ippolito wrote in PolicyMic: As a 501(c)6, the NFL isn’t supposed to engage in business “ordinarily carried on for profit.” Apparently, licensing exorbitantly priced apparel, granting broadcast rights, and running an entire television network don’t count as profitable endeavors."

ajtaylor 12y ago

What's sad to me is to read that the writer is happy to have a permanently damaged knee in exchange for a few years of playing football. Personally I can't see how it would be worth it. I need to walk, run and cycle every day for the rest of my life. I don't need to play football.

DigitalJack 12y ago
So you are sad that someone else is happy because what makes them happy isn't what makes you happy.
- ajtaylor 12y ago
  I'm sad that people incur permanent, potentially life changing injuries from the game, not because I want to push my views on them.
- jlebar 12y ago
  Well, sure. In the limit, I'd be sad if a large portion of humanity chose to use the experience machine [1]. More realistically, I'm sad that Americans spend so much time watching TV, even if it makes them happy. I think I can at once support this guy's ability to make choices for himself and be saddened that our culture may have socialized him into making a tradeoff that I don't think was worthwhile, in some objective sense. Perhaps the test I mean is, suppose football didn't exist and then you walked up to this guy in the present day, explained what football is, and then gave him the choice to relive his life starting from high school, but this time with football and all the (positive and negative) consequences he faced. It seems likely to me that he'd reject this out of hand. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Experience_machine http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Experience_machine
sehr 12y ago
In my experience, the actual sport I was playing was less important than those I played it with. There's a lot more to it than just 'playing football'
- 12y ago

mbesto 12y ago

They're measuring all of the head issues at Stanford: http://espn.go.com/espn/otl/story/_/id/8311371/significant-advances-being-made-concussion-research-universities-nationwide http://espn.go.com/espn/otl/story/_/id/8311371/significant-a...

spikels 12y ago

I think fufilling a lifelong dream to play pro football and the minimum salary of $420,000 explains why there are thousands of people lined up to take these jobs despite the well known health risks. BTW - The incidence of alcohol related arrest for NFL players mentioned, while in my opinion excessive, is probably below average for young US males which is prob over 2% per year for DUI alone. What's amazing is how common this is in general - 1 in 139 licensed drivers each year are arrested for DUI. http://www.duifoundation.org/research/facts/ http://www.duifoundation.org/research/facts/

analog31 12y ago
What disturbs me is that the training has to start before kids are really old enough to weigh the risks and returns. The net-present-value of aspiring to a pro football career is probably in the neighborhood of 10 bucks when the actual probability of success is considered. It could even be negative due to the effect of those concussions. And it's unfathomable that the concussions don't have some progressive effect starting on day one. This is one of those cases where you have a seemingly infinitesimal probability of a seemingly infinite outcome. I think that folks just have a very hard time thinking about that kind of situation rationally.
- baddox 12y ago
  > What disturbs me is that the training has to start before kids are really old enough to weigh the risks and returns. Presumably the vast majority of football players in high school don't even intend to play in college, much less professionally. I don't have any data, and I know there have been some high-profile tragedies in high school football, but I would guess that injuries are much rarer in high school.
  - analog31 12y ago
    While the news-making injuries are probably more rare, I'm concerned that a constant succession of low grade concussions might have a cumulative effect that I wouldn't wish on my own kids. Not that either of them is a prospect for playing football at any level. Instead, they're engaged in an activity with a roughly equal chance of professional success -- playing classical music. But at least I can send them to practice without wondering if it will set them back mentally, with symptoms that show up 30 to 50 years later.

index0 12y ago

I really don't these kind of articles because in actuality NFL players live longer and are less like to commit crime then the average male. On paper there's no story here and usually that's enough for HN. Writers and journalists can easily pick on these athletes because they generally don't have the literary facilities to defend the choices they've made in the same Op-Ed fashion and I'll be frank and say jealousy is playing a large role here. All jobs take a mental and physical toll. Most jobs aren't fulfilling or notable in any way and the existential terror of living like that is a much great strain on the psyche then getting a few concussions. The average overweight, underemployed American likes to believe he's better off then someone who has unflinchingly been same thing since freshman year of high-school, maybe he is, maybe he isn't, either way it's a consoling thought while distractedly surfing the net. When it comes down to it these players are responsible for their own safety and unless you're willing to submit to the same diet and exercise regime as they do, don't criticize them they don't deserve it.

wutangson1 12y ago
Great reply! The article really smacks of hype and sensationalism. There is no need to lie awake at night obsessing over the ammonium "smelling salts" he provided. Those ampules cannot help you if you are injured.
darkerside 12y ago
Criticize? I didn't see that in the article. Your 19 minute old account, with its oddly oblique responses to the article's actual points, makes me very suspicious.
mburns 12y ago
>in actuality NFL players live longer ... then the average male http://www.boston.com/lifestyle/health/2013/01/29/nfl-players-union-and-harvard-team-landmark-study-football-injuries-and-illness/aCGnf96h7ptWX2Lnp5MIiP/story.html http://www.boston.com/lifestyle/health/2013/01/29/nfl-player... The NFL seems to disagree. Do you have a citation to back up your claim?

bkjelden 12y ago

I've been thinking lately if it would be possible to create a variant of football that was just as exciting without the collisions and violence. Most of what makes me like football more than other sports can be summed up into the following: * Effort matters more than talent - talented teams that are not focused can be upset by less talented teams that are playing harder * Team game - since it's 11v11 and not 5v5, with a few rare exceptions, no one player can make a team. Everyone has to be working together to win. * Drama - every game is just a game. no best of 3, best of 5, etc. This combines with the first point to make every game worth watching. * Strategy - The chess match of how an offense matches up against a defense, how coordinators will use their players' distinct skills to exploit the other team's weaknesses, etc, is fascinating. * Variety of athletes - I was an offensive lineman when I played football in my younger years, and to put it nicely, I have an offensive lineman's build. So I've always enjoyed that football utilizes a variety of athletes that are skilled in more ways than just speed. So would it be possible to put all of these, except maybe the last, into a new game that didn't cause brain damage? I think so, I'm just not sure what that game would look like. I sure hope football can get this figured out, because for all of the bad attention it's been getting lately, it is still a sport that brings a lot of happiness to a lot of people.

webnrrd2k 12y ago
Soccer?
notatoad 12y ago
I think what you call "effort" in the first point could probably also be called violence. Things like How fast you can run and how far you can throw are skill based, the only non skill based aspect of the game that I can think of is how hard you're willing to hit.
- brusch 12y ago
  There are some players who are not necessarily the best athletes on the team, but can excel with better instincts or a better way to analyze the game. But in the NFL the level of athleticism is so high - obviously there aren't any bad athletes in there. If you know exactly where to run beats running (a little) faster.