4 ms·

I fluxuate with how I feel about it (it = 'machiavellian policy'). I'm not going to defend US policy in this case, nor claim to understand all of the nuances re

I fluxuate with how I feel about it (it = 'machiavellian policy'). I'm not going to defend US policy in this case, nor claim to understand all of the nuances required to make global strategic geopolitical decisions. But I will say that the NSA's perspective is that: it is only because of the Snowden leaks if we have lost face with allies. To the NSA, the secrets were kept well enough until Snowden and friends disclosed them. This is my basic issue with this article. America and the NSA ate mud pie for the actions disclosed in the leaks. This article has the very real possibility of doing a lot more damage. One could say it is good because justice has been served, but one could also suggest that it is bad because similar disclosures of German surveillance programs (a touchy subject given the history), Chinese capabilities, Russian objectives etc haven't been disclosed by a Snowden-like actor. Really the whole situation is bad. I don't like being at war, cyber or otherwise.

grey-area 12y ago
This is my basic issue with this article. America and the NSA ate mud pie for the actions disclosed in the leaks. This article has the very real possibility of doing a lot more damage. Not because of the leaks, but because of their actions. That's an important distinction. If you take actions like this, you should be prepared for them to be exposed, and if you use the argument the NSA and you yourself have made here (it would be ok if we were evil and no-one knew about it), you should expect no one to trust you. You've just declared yourself untrustworthy and a bad ally in perpetuity, because you think this is ok as long as no-one knew about it.
- xnull2guest 12y ago
  > Not because of the leaks, but because of their actions. That's an important distinction. Right. I agree with that. There's actually sort of a boolean AND. Because we did them AND we got caught. My guess is that all major players are doing the same stuff and that if the US doesn't participate it loses. I doubt the US hacked Germany on a whim - I bet it was a pretty labored decision with cost-benefit analysis (one being chance of getting caught).
meowface 12y ago
>But I will say that the NSA's perspective is that: it is only because of the Snowden leaks if we have lost face with allies. To the NSA, the secrets were kept well enough until Snowden and friends disclosed them. Of course that's their perspective, as is the perspective of anyone committing an embarrassing or morally unscrupulous act. "The thing I regret most is getting caught." Secrets of this nature have a tendency to leak. If it wasn't Snowden, it could've been anyone else. I don't think all of the NSA's capabilities or actions should be leaked, but reporting of confirmed infiltrations of US and allied companies and systems is fine by my book. All's fair in love and war, but we are not at war with Germany or Brazil or, hopefully, ourselves.
- xnull2guest 12y ago
  > the perspective of anyone committing an embarrassing or morally unscrupulous act In this instance it was embarrassing because it brought into question how well the US would be able to keep secret strategic information. And yeah hacking into allies is pretty unscrupulous. A bunch of the Snowden leaks showed that Israel, France, Germany and others have hacked into us. It's the way it all works. > Secrets of this nature have a tendency to leak. If it wasn't Snowden, it could've been anyone else There were many such leaks, e.g. Binney. > reporting of confirmed infiltrations of US and allied companies and systems is fine by my book I agree wholeheartedly with this.
  - MisterWebz 12y ago
    > ... Germany and others have hacked into us. Could you elaborate? As far as I know, Germany has some kind of agreement to not spy on the US.
    - xnull 12y ago
      Found the reference to Israel/France, looking for Germany references. http://hbpub.vo.llnwd.net/o16/video/olmk/holt/greenwald/NoPlaceToHide-Documents-Compressed.pdf http://hbpub.vo.llnwd.net/o16/video/olmk/holt/greenwald/NoPl... (pg 40/125) Why the downvote here? The comment contributes to the conversation...

grey-area 12y ago

This is my basic issue with this article. America and the NSA ate mud pie for the actions disclosed in the leaks. This article has the very real possibility of doing a lot more damage. Not because of the leaks, but because of their actions. That's an important distinction. If you take actions like this, you should be prepared for them to be exposed, and if you use the argument the NSA and you yourself have made here (it would be ok if we were evil and no-one knew about it), you should expect no one to trust you. You've just declared yourself untrustworthy and a bad ally in perpetuity, because you think this is ok as long as no-one knew about it.

xnull2guest 12y ago
> Not because of the leaks, but because of their actions. That's an important distinction. Right. I agree with that. There's actually sort of a boolean AND. Because we did them AND we got caught. My guess is that all major players are doing the same stuff and that if the US doesn't participate it loses. I doubt the US hacked Germany on a whim - I bet it was a pretty labored decision with cost-benefit analysis (one being chance of getting caught).

meowface 12y ago

>But I will say that the NSA's perspective is that: it is only because of the Snowden leaks if we have lost face with allies. To the NSA, the secrets were kept well enough until Snowden and friends disclosed them. Of course that's their perspective, as is the perspective of anyone committing an embarrassing or morally unscrupulous act. "The thing I regret most is getting caught." Secrets of this nature have a tendency to leak. If it wasn't Snowden, it could've been anyone else. I don't think all of the NSA's capabilities or actions should be leaked, but reporting of confirmed infiltrations of US and allied companies and systems is fine by my book. All's fair in love and war, but we are not at war with Germany or Brazil or, hopefully, ourselves.

xnull2guest 12y ago
> the perspective of anyone committing an embarrassing or morally unscrupulous act In this instance it was embarrassing because it brought into question how well the US would be able to keep secret strategic information. And yeah hacking into allies is pretty unscrupulous. A bunch of the Snowden leaks showed that Israel, France, Germany and others have hacked into us. It's the way it all works. > Secrets of this nature have a tendency to leak. If it wasn't Snowden, it could've been anyone else There were many such leaks, e.g. Binney. > reporting of confirmed infiltrations of US and allied companies and systems is fine by my book I agree wholeheartedly with this.
- MisterWebz 12y ago
  > ... Germany and others have hacked into us. Could you elaborate? As far as I know, Germany has some kind of agreement to not spy on the US.
  - xnull 12y ago
    Found the reference to Israel/France, looking for Germany references. http://hbpub.vo.llnwd.net/o16/video/olmk/holt/greenwald/NoPlaceToHide-Documents-Compressed.pdf http://hbpub.vo.llnwd.net/o16/video/olmk/holt/greenwald/NoPl... (pg 40/125) Why the downvote here? The comment contributes to the conversation...