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Let's all perform an experiment right now to show that we're conscious: Look at an object and then turn around and face the other direction so that you can't s

by chroem- 12y ago

Let's all perform an experiment right now to show that we're conscious: Look at an object and then turn around and face the other direction so that you can't sense it anymore. Are you still aware that the object is there? If yes, congratulations! You have consciousness. That object you looked at still exists as a pattern of neuron potentials within your brain's inner state. If you have a corresponding inner state for an external object, you possess some degree of consciousness.

hcarvalhoalves 12y ago
So, someone with short-term amnesia cannot be considered conscious?
- chroem- 12y ago
  The scope of their consciousness might be impaired, but they would still be somewhat conscious. However, if you literally cannot remember anything the moment you look away from it, then yes, I would argue that constitutes unconsciousness. Without an internal state to influence your actions, all you're left with is reflexes.
  - jhallenworld 12y ago
    Well it's an interesting point you make.. I've thought for a long time that consciousness is tied up with memory in a certain way: my theory is that you can not commit anything to long term memory that you were not first conscious of. Considering the huge amount of sensory data available this is really saying something. You could even conceive of the brain not working this way- that it could store sensory data for later perusal. But I'm pretty sure it just doesn't store anything which isn't first filtered by consciousness. I don't think it's yet understood how the brain keeps short term state. Neurons are pulse-based, so I assume short term state can at least be very crudely described as some kind of recirculating loop of these impulses. Neurons get tired, so it's difficult to keep such loops going for long. This gives us the feeling of effort to pay attention to something for a long time. Even so, I don't think memory like this is the whole story. There is a sensory-experience part of consciousness which is hard to describe. When I experience something as simple as the color orange it's difficult to find a good analogy with anything mechanical. You could say it's what you experience when your eye generates impulses for a certain wavelength of light, but just having a certain signal is not a satisfactory enough explanation of what "orange" really is. Time is another issue.. whatever consciousness is, it only happens "now". But what is now? If the brain is a computer then its state can be expressed as a number, perhaps written on a page of paper. You take the current state, the sensory input, follow some rules and determine the next state (and record it on the next page of paper). What's special about new states coming into being? I don't think much of anything.. so when you have a whole notebook of pages with states where is the "now"? Why does executing some mechanical process count as the feeling of experience?
    - dougabug 12y ago
      "The feeling of experience" is likely the result of a mechanical process, in much the same way that the expression of DNA into RNA to construct proteins and regulate life is a mechanical process. If a robot can see its environment, see objects and people and places recognize them, remember them, knows where it is and that it itself is a specific type of object in that space, constructs and modifies models for all of that...how is that not "experiencing"?
  - MichaelGG 12y ago
    Some people with brain damage can end up with strange side effects. One man lost the concept of left - everything on the left side of anything simply ceased to exist, even conceptually, for him. He might fail your test in some situations, but certainly be conscious. Additionally, any unconscious intelligence would pass this test. Even a human in an unconscious state might pass it.
millstone 12y ago
This sounds more like memories than consciousness. Even planaria can remember the best path to get food.
- chroem- 12y ago
  Long term memories are distinctly different. Rather than existing as patterns of potentials within a recurrent neural network like short term memories, long term memories are stored in the physical arrangement of the neurons themselves. Long-term learning is an inherent property of any neural network, but short-term storage of patterns, and more importantly interpretation of those patterns, has quite a bit of overhead.
m0th87 12y ago
So if I can devise software that remembers thing it's seen, it's conscious? Where is this precedent coming from?
dalek_cannes 12y ago
I thought on HN, disagreement is expressed through refutation, not down-voting.

by chroem- 12y ago

hcarvalhoalves 12y ago

So, someone with short-term amnesia cannot be considered conscious?

chroem- 12y ago
The scope of their consciousness might be impaired, but they would still be somewhat conscious. However, if you literally cannot remember anything the moment you look away from it, then yes, I would argue that constitutes unconsciousness. Without an internal state to influence your actions, all you're left with is reflexes.
- jhallenworld 12y ago
  Well it's an interesting point you make.. I've thought for a long time that consciousness is tied up with memory in a certain way: my theory is that you can not commit anything to long term memory that you were not first conscious of. Considering the huge amount of sensory data available this is really saying something. You could even conceive of the brain not working this way- that it could store sensory data for later perusal. But I'm pretty sure it just doesn't store anything which isn't first filtered by consciousness. I don't think it's yet understood how the brain keeps short term state. Neurons are pulse-based, so I assume short term state can at least be very crudely described as some kind of recirculating loop of these impulses. Neurons get tired, so it's difficult to keep such loops going for long. This gives us the feeling of effort to pay attention to something for a long time. Even so, I don't think memory like this is the whole story. There is a sensory-experience part of consciousness which is hard to describe. When I experience something as simple as the color orange it's difficult to find a good analogy with anything mechanical. You could say it's what you experience when your eye generates impulses for a certain wavelength of light, but just having a certain signal is not a satisfactory enough explanation of what "orange" really is. Time is another issue.. whatever consciousness is, it only happens "now". But what is now? If the brain is a computer then its state can be expressed as a number, perhaps written on a page of paper. You take the current state, the sensory input, follow some rules and determine the next state (and record it on the next page of paper). What's special about new states coming into being? I don't think much of anything.. so when you have a whole notebook of pages with states where is the "now"? Why does executing some mechanical process count as the feeling of experience?
  - dougabug 12y ago
    "The feeling of experience" is likely the result of a mechanical process, in much the same way that the expression of DNA into RNA to construct proteins and regulate life is a mechanical process. If a robot can see its environment, see objects and people and places recognize them, remember them, knows where it is and that it itself is a specific type of object in that space, constructs and modifies models for all of that...how is that not "experiencing"?
- MichaelGG 12y ago
  Some people with brain damage can end up with strange side effects. One man lost the concept of left - everything on the left side of anything simply ceased to exist, even conceptually, for him. He might fail your test in some situations, but certainly be conscious. Additionally, any unconscious intelligence would pass this test. Even a human in an unconscious state might pass it.

millstone 12y ago

This sounds more like memories than consciousness. Even planaria can remember the best path to get food.

chroem- 12y ago
Long term memories are distinctly different. Rather than existing as patterns of potentials within a recurrent neural network like short term memories, long term memories are stored in the physical arrangement of the neurons themselves. Long-term learning is an inherent property of any neural network, but short-term storage of patterns, and more importantly interpretation of those patterns, has quite a bit of overhead.

m0th87 12y ago

So if I can devise software that remembers thing it's seen, it's conscious? Where is this precedent coming from?

dalek_cannes 12y ago

I thought on HN, disagreement is expressed through refutation, not down-voting.