5 ms·

What will drugs give them though? As the article says, the perfect runner will be light, short, have long legs, insane VO2 max, good heat dissipation, low oxyge

by mabbo 12y ago

What will drugs give them though? As the article says, the perfect runner will be light, short, have long legs, insane VO2 max, good heat dissipation, low oxygen requirements. Apart from blood doping to increase VO2 max, what can one do to improve those other things?

outside1234 12y ago
Basically what drugs allow you to do is recover faster and better - which allows you to train far harder than your clean competition and build all of these superhuman stats you enumerated. A famous cycling reporter took drugs for a month to see just want the effect was and apparently it was like being superman. He would go out and ride 100 miles (something that normally leaves you in couch mode the next day) and be ready to do all again the next day like he hadn't even touched the bike the day before. http://www.amazon.com/The-Doper-Next-Door-Performance-Enhancing/dp/1582437157 http://www.amazon.com/The-Doper-Next-Door-Performance-Enhanc... HGH and EPO are the drugs we have all heard about but I'm sure there are 8 we haven't heard about yet. Also this book gives you insight into the violence we are seeing outside of the gridlines in the NFL. Apparently all of these drugs running around in you makes you crazy in a lot of cases.
- TwoBit 12y ago
  That reporter was an idiot. His entire experiment was qualitative instead of quantitative. How did he know that his performance improved? Because he reported that he felt like he was going faster. Useless.
  - jerf 12y ago
    Are you seriously going to defend the proposition that the placebo effect is that large? Science requires us to be more careful in our thinking than we are naturally inclined towards. It does not require us to pretend we have a lobotomy, nor does it require that we pretend that we must seriously entertain the hypothesis that large doses of steroids have no effect.
- maxerickson 12y ago
  NFL players aren't particularly violent outside of the gridlines: http://fivethirtyeight.com/datalab/the-rate-of-domestic-violence-arrests-among-nfl-players/ http://fivethirtyeight.com/datalab/the-rate-of-domestic-viol...
  - outside1234 12y ago
    I have to admit that it is depressing to think that NFL players are really the normal and not the outlier.
  - zorpner 12y ago
    ...relative to the income level (top 1 percent) and poverty rate (0 percent) of NFL players, the domestic violence arrest rate is downright extraordinary. You've really misrepresented the article.
    - maxerickson 12y ago
      I don't think I tried very hard to pin the article down. I did make the comment from the comparison to the general population though. edit: I have to say, I'm pretty ticked off you accused me of being dishonest. My one sentence blurb is a reasonable response to the context from the parent comment to mine, where the NFL players are claimed as a group that is more violent than normal. There is certainly room to point out that they have cohorts where they don't compare well, but it is not outrageous to answer an assertion about how they compare to people in general with an analysis of how they compare to people in general.
- Balgair 12y ago
  Hmm, I wonder what the long term effects of these drugs are. Medicinal and therapeutic use may be very promising for average people just trying to stay in shape. If the long term effects aren't too terrible, say like that of coffee, then greater acceptance may be possible. Also, as toward the 2 hour marathon, drugs that are psychoactive may be of as great a benefit as the physical ones. Not just caffeine and other placebos, but getting into the right 'head space' is just as important to breaking such records. LSD was an integral part of one of baseball's no hitters, a terrific feat of athleticism. Many feats of the mind may be broken in Washington state due to the permissive pot laws.
  - Patrick_Devine 12y ago
    Here's a short film on Dock Ellis's no hitter: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_vUhSYLRw14 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_vUhSYLRw14
  - dpatrick86 12y ago
    Speaking to your question about "what the long term effects of these drugs are": My wife put together a together a pretty interesting video about the "faustian bargain" which is IGF-1 (used as a proxy measure for growth hormone)... video is replete with examples of the effects of low IGF-1/GH or high IGF-1/GH both in animal models and humans. One of the more interesting points in the video is the fact that people with polymorphisms that make their IGF-1 receptor experience some slight loss of function actually live longer (in general). https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AjSl4n_KdOY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AjSl4n_KdOY The video also links to an article which has a bibliography if you're interested.
    - thesz 12y ago
      I viewed the video to a half and found enough difference with what I know that I cannot agree with her conclusions. It is more complicated than performance/longevity. Especially when we going to humans from animals. For example, reaction speed correlates with longevity: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16079205 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16079205 Reaction speed needs muscle power and neural signal power, both are supported by IGF-1. Arm grip in midlife is stronger for centenarians: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21541735 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21541735 Thus, while entertaining, the video of your wife is too quick to jump to conclusions.
ibmthrowaway218 12y ago
I think one of the main areas of interest would be raising lactate threshold to delay OBLA. That's the main limit/inhibitor for endurance events. I'd expect the next generation of drugs will focus on things like improving monocarboxylate transporter throughput/efficiency.
- raverbashing 12y ago
  Very interesting http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lactate_threshold http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lactate_threshold
x0x0 12y ago
Quickly skimming the drug cocktails tour de france competitors take will answer your question. But, as sibling answers say, decreased training recovery times is incredibly important. Steroids also protect your joints -- they are an anti-inflammatory. Runners' knees, ankles, and spines take a pounding.
bagacrap 12y ago
Drugs like testosterone allow you to lose fat mass while retaining muscle mass. Drugs like clenbuterol help you shed weight and metabolize fat more quickly.

by mabbo 12y ago

outside1234 12y ago

Basically what drugs allow you to do is recover faster and better - which allows you to train far harder than your clean competition and build all of these superhuman stats you enumerated. A famous cycling reporter took drugs for a month to see just want the effect was and apparently it was like being superman. He would go out and ride 100 miles (something that normally leaves you in couch mode the next day) and be ready to do all again the next day like he hadn't even touched the bike the day before. http://www.amazon.com/The-Doper-Next-Door-Performance-Enhancing/dp/1582437157 http://www.amazon.com/The-Doper-Next-Door-Performance-Enhanc... HGH and EPO are the drugs we have all heard about but I'm sure there are 8 we haven't heard about yet. Also this book gives you insight into the violence we are seeing outside of the gridlines in the NFL. Apparently all of these drugs running around in you makes you crazy in a lot of cases.

TwoBit 12y ago
That reporter was an idiot. His entire experiment was qualitative instead of quantitative. How did he know that his performance improved? Because he reported that he felt like he was going faster. Useless.
- jerf 12y ago
  Are you seriously going to defend the proposition that the placebo effect is that large? Science requires us to be more careful in our thinking than we are naturally inclined towards. It does not require us to pretend we have a lobotomy, nor does it require that we pretend that we must seriously entertain the hypothesis that large doses of steroids have no effect.
maxerickson 12y ago
NFL players aren't particularly violent outside of the gridlines: http://fivethirtyeight.com/datalab/the-rate-of-domestic-violence-arrests-among-nfl-players/ http://fivethirtyeight.com/datalab/the-rate-of-domestic-viol...
- outside1234 12y ago
  I have to admit that it is depressing to think that NFL players are really the normal and not the outlier.
- zorpner 12y ago
  ...relative to the income level (top 1 percent) and poverty rate (0 percent) of NFL players, the domestic violence arrest rate is downright extraordinary. You've really misrepresented the article.
  - maxerickson 12y ago
    I don't think I tried very hard to pin the article down. I did make the comment from the comparison to the general population though. edit: I have to say, I'm pretty ticked off you accused me of being dishonest. My one sentence blurb is a reasonable response to the context from the parent comment to mine, where the NFL players are claimed as a group that is more violent than normal. There is certainly room to point out that they have cohorts where they don't compare well, but it is not outrageous to answer an assertion about how they compare to people in general with an analysis of how they compare to people in general.
Balgair 12y ago
Hmm, I wonder what the long term effects of these drugs are. Medicinal and therapeutic use may be very promising for average people just trying to stay in shape. If the long term effects aren't too terrible, say like that of coffee, then greater acceptance may be possible. Also, as toward the 2 hour marathon, drugs that are psychoactive may be of as great a benefit as the physical ones. Not just caffeine and other placebos, but getting into the right 'head space' is just as important to breaking such records. LSD was an integral part of one of baseball's no hitters, a terrific feat of athleticism. Many feats of the mind may be broken in Washington state due to the permissive pot laws.
- Patrick_Devine 12y ago
  Here's a short film on Dock Ellis's no hitter: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_vUhSYLRw14 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_vUhSYLRw14
- dpatrick86 12y ago
  Speaking to your question about "what the long term effects of these drugs are": My wife put together a together a pretty interesting video about the "faustian bargain" which is IGF-1 (used as a proxy measure for growth hormone)... video is replete with examples of the effects of low IGF-1/GH or high IGF-1/GH both in animal models and humans. One of the more interesting points in the video is the fact that people with polymorphisms that make their IGF-1 receptor experience some slight loss of function actually live longer (in general). https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AjSl4n_KdOY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AjSl4n_KdOY The video also links to an article which has a bibliography if you're interested.
  - thesz 12y ago
    I viewed the video to a half and found enough difference with what I know that I cannot agree with her conclusions. It is more complicated than performance/longevity. Especially when we going to humans from animals. For example, reaction speed correlates with longevity: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16079205 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16079205 Reaction speed needs muscle power and neural signal power, both are supported by IGF-1. Arm grip in midlife is stronger for centenarians: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21541735 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21541735 Thus, while entertaining, the video of your wife is too quick to jump to conclusions.

ibmthrowaway218 12y ago

I think one of the main areas of interest would be raising lactate threshold to delay OBLA. That's the main limit/inhibitor for endurance events. I'd expect the next generation of drugs will focus on things like improving monocarboxylate transporter throughput/efficiency.

raverbashing 12y ago
Very interesting http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lactate_threshold http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lactate_threshold

x0x0 12y ago

Quickly skimming the drug cocktails tour de france competitors take will answer your question. But, as sibling answers say, decreased training recovery times is incredibly important. Steroids also protect your joints -- they are an anti-inflammatory. Runners' knees, ankles, and spines take a pounding.

bagacrap 12y ago

Drugs like testosterone allow you to lose fat mass while retaining muscle mass. Drugs like clenbuterol help you shed weight and metabolize fat more quickly.