8 ms·

The Toughest Adversity I've Ever Faced

163 points by scobar 12y ago

trose 12y ago
Am I supposed to feel sorry for someone that got caught exploiting online games?
- dang 12y ago
  I don't recall the article asking anyone to feel sorry.
- scobar 12y ago
  No, the post was more therapeutic for myself. I'd never found a crowd that could completely understand what happened that caused the night and day difference in my life at that point. To everyone in my social bubble (except my father and wife), I was simply a victim of the recession that began in 2008. A solid message you should take away from that post is: Life will throw you curve balls, and I'm genuinely grateful to have found a place like HN.
lmm 12y ago
I was expecting some kind of payoff at the end, but nope. Just a whole lot of money lost and little to show for it. Confidence is important but so is doubt. Not all ideas are good, and just believing in an idea isn't enough to make it a success. And the "safe" corporate jobs can be just as fulfilling in their own way.
nugget 12y ago
Great story. Many parallels to the performance marketing and affiliate worlds, where mostly young people stumble into great opportunities, usually exploiting loopholes or underserved markets such as this, and suddenly start printing a thousand dollars a day in profit. The vast majority of them know, deep down, that it can't last, but somehow still end up getting lulled into a feeling of complacency. That's the feeling I got from your post too. You are definitely not alone in your experience, and you already learned the most important lesson, which is you don't need anyone's permission to start a project and see if it works. If you're ever in a similar situation again, take the money day by day and remind yourself that at some point the ATM machine is going to shut down. Of the dozen or so liquid USD millionaire affiliates I knew in my 20s, I'd say half are bankrupt or close to it today.
5F36B5F62640 12y ago
You call it adversity. I call it karma. Your business was based on ruining games for ordinary players by exploiting bugs (in violation of your contract with the game operator) to duplicate items for sale for real-world currency. This messes up the game economy and it messes up the game balance.
- scobar 12y ago
  Perhaps you are right about the karma, but you should understand that I loved playing those games too. I knew I could have ruined their economies if I were careless or released the hacks publicly. I actually monitored a control group of servers where I did no duplication, and their economies were nearly identical to those where I did. Overall, I used the exploit on only about half the servers. If there had been a glaring difference, the game developer probably wouldn't have thought it impossible to have existed when I asked for a bounty to divulge it.
eclipxe 12y ago
Exploiting games for profit is not something to be proud of. It seems like you have some of the necessary skills to run a business, but you need to find a product that is not based on theft.
- lucb1e 12y ago
  Probably not, but I doubt he means to show off. To me it reads more like it shows his technical skill that companies he applied for seem to overlook.
- smtddr 12y ago
  >>Exploiting games for profit is not something to be proud of. If a candidate had on their resume a blog link with detailed explanation of a technical exploit in a videogame and how they profited by it... that'd be a +1 in my book.
- nmjohn 12y ago
  Who is being robbed? Throughout my teenage years I taught myself to program by writing bots to play mmorpgs for me then I would sell the gold. I made a fraction of what this guy did, but for a 13-17 year old I was doing quite well. I have no delusions that what I was doing was "virtuous" or benefiting the world and what have you. But by the same token I don't think what I did was the opposite of that either - I certainly wasn't selling a product based on theft as you put it. And in the end it's the main reason I'm a programmer today, nearly a decade later.
  - Terr_ 12y ago
    The same people being "robbed" when you counterfeit money: It's divided across everybody else whose achievements and items are reduced in value.
    - nmjohn 12y ago
      Except that isn't at all the case. By botting a video game money isn't being created out of thin air like with counterfeiting. Resources are collected which are sold for gold pieces from other players. The difference may not feel like much - but it's night and day in terms of the practical economic implications.
Terr_ 12y ago
I read the whole post, and it's just left me with a strong sense of unease. A gut-feeling that strongly reminds me of self-stories I've heard from certain people in real life, among them a next-cubicle coworker who was eventually institutionalized. > When he finally responded, I was so excited that I sent him a long story (like this one) explaining my life, and gave him a link to a website with some of my ideas. After receiving no response, I realized how selfish I was to think he had time to read all of that. > I still had hope though, so I narrated all of it and sent him .mp3 files so he could listen to it while he was jogging or something. Putting your autobiography on tape for a prospective employer after already sending a text version... well, I think it's a sign. In all seriousness, I believe the author could see big personal benefits from some kind of professional counseling about this stuff, as opposed to throwing it all out on the internet.
- dropit_sphere 12y ago
  >I think the author needs some kind of mental help or therapy which I am not qualified to provide. Maybe, but I doubt it. This just seems like inexperience. It took me a very long time to figure out the transition between worlds that are about you (school) to worlds that are not about you (work). The transition is not one of "selfishness" as much as it's about perspective. PG describes the dichotomy well in "Two Kinds of Judgment:" http://paulgraham.com/judgement.html http://paulgraham.com/judgement.html Venkatesh Rao explains similar phenomena in his Gervais series: http://www.ribbonfarm.com/2009/10/07/the-gervais-principle-or-the-office-according-to-the-office/ http://www.ribbonfarm.com/2009/10/07/the-gervais-principle-o...
  - scobar 12y ago
    Thank you for expressing it better than I had. When I tried to see my actions from his perspective, that's when I wanted to apologize.
    - dropit_sphere 12y ago
      If I were to give you some advice, it would be to: a)keep working at any job you can find. Wading through sewage for minimum wage? Take it. b) Spend as little money as possible. Put all your earnings in a big pile on the kitchen table if you have nothing else to do with them. Your wife may be able to help in terms of keeping expenses to a minimum. c)Since that job will most likely suck, spend off hours looking for a better job. Don't quit the first one until the second one is in the bag. Meanwhile, do good work at the first job. It's not like you're going to stick around for 20 years, so why not do great? d) Repeat steps a-c until you have enough saved up for EITHER a bachelor's in a technical field + living expenses for the time OR some other boring, predictable, spreadsheet-friendly investment. e) email me any time at dropit.sphere at google's email service if you need someone to talk to. I earned a perfect SAT score and am working as a valet, so I know how it is.
j_s 12y ago
Thanks for sharing your story Scott; I've lurked on HN far longer and never had the courage to stick my neck out like you have today. I hope this leads to something amazing for you and your family!
- scobar 12y ago
  Thank you so much for your kind comment. Like mentioned in another comment, my post was primarily meant to be cathartic. I didn't expect it to get much attention so I've been kind of overwhelmed by the responses.
johnnyg 12y ago
I think it is funny that the YC crowd points to "naughty" when it benefits them and says things like "Am I supposed to feel sorry for someone that got caught exploiting online games?" when it doesn't. When someone will take apart a game for fun, for better or for worse and often both, it is intrinsic. We praise capncrunch and damn this guy? I'm sorry you lost your parents Scott. Congratulations on your child and marriage. YC is a mixed bag but I feel home here too. There are a lot of ways to hack the world. I'm not sure if you've picked inconsistent/risky ones because of personality type/thrill or because it is where you landed. If its where you landed, move toward the center. Sounds like you've got the basic small business skills to sell many things and you don't require permission or motivation to do so. Consider hacking on your life instead of the games. What do you know that's inefficient where you are and could be interesting? I hear heavy equipment auctions are big and profitable in rural areas and I know from experience it is a space software hasn't touched. Pick a product or set of products (wave energy harvesting equipment?) and niche it via PPC. See what the market is like for them on eBay. Go with the black hat and get picked up by a security consulting firm. I've rarely seen them be degree choosy with people who have the chops. Don't make the mistake of thinking the only interesting things are on the fringes. Lastly, ignore the rest of the noise of this thread. Keep your head up. Stay interested. Stay playful.
- diminoten 12y ago
  > Go with the black hat and get picked up by a security consulting firm. Go with the black hat and end up in jail. Don't do this, guy. It's not worth it. Please do good. :-/
  - johnnyg 12y ago
    I did not say that clearly. I mean if you like breaking things for fun, work for a digital security company and get paid to do it. Be the guy who is paid to do penetration tests and the like. That's "Black Hat" work turned to the good.
    - diminoten 12y ago
      Ah, no worries. To be fair, he's more or less already a "black hat" insofar that he's profited off of the arguably illegal use of computer systems. I wouldn't be so hasty to dismiss HN's attitude towards his previous company -- I think if he tries to get a job and cites his "dupe" work, he's going to be surprised how few folks will be willing to work with him. I work for a security firm (FireEye, woo we're hiring!) and while I'm not specifically on the consulting side, I get the sense that it's a very straight-laced bunch of folks who take their jobs incredibly seriously. You don't want to walk into an interview with a guy who works with the FBI on the regular and confess to constantly, repeatedly, and profitably committing a computer crime. It's just not going to work well for you, all moralization aside.
WrathOfJay 12y ago
Hey, it's great that you're trying to find a place for yourself in the world. Unfortunately, you seem to have a malfunctioning moral compass, and you give off a sociopath space-cadet vibe. Making money exploiting in video games and tricking weak-minded people into buying worthless shit is not a path to anything good. Stop trying to bullshit your way through life and if you're lucky you might just be OK.
- freshflowers 12y ago
  Sociopath may be a bridge too far, but there's definitely something very, very off about the way the author describes his scam as a business, and the apparent lack of emotion with which he describes the events in his life. It's cold and factual, and all "me, me, me".
  - dang 12y ago
    How fascinating that we see such different things in the article. In the one I read, a guy puts his life on hold to take care of his dying father: I spent nearly every day helping him out. I couldn't bear to see him worry about me That's not "me, me, me", nor does it lack emotion, and certainly it refutes the (already self-refutingly silly) diagnosis of sociopathy. I wonder if there may be some crossed cultural signals here. Montana is not a place where people effuse.
    - Terr_ 12y ago
      Totally independently (there were 0 comments when I started reading) I've reached a gut feeling which I think closely mirrors WrathOfJay's. > > I couldn't bare to see him worry about me > That's not "me, me, me", nor does it lack emotion Switch the emphasis around, and he couldn't bear his future success being doubted. The story being told still comes back to the author's same universal preoccupation, which involves his own validation as a famous and successful person, or failing that one who is destined for it. No, I wouldn't call it sociopathy, but narcissism is definitely in the cards.
  - Blackthorn 12y ago
diminoten 12y ago
How does someone get 100k in debt from undergrad? Is that a thing? I know folks with graduate and professional degrees from not-very-cheap institutions who aren't at the 100k mark. That's med school level. I too haven't graduated from college, and I have had no trouble finding work because of it. AOL wouldn't look at my resumé, and I assume other large companies won't either, but there are a ton of startups and other shops that will beg you to work for them if you demonstrate a clear ability to excel in their environment. This is probably the most non-graduate friendly career industry out there. Your first step should be to get a job, and QA sounds like a great place for you. You'd be surprised how easy it is to move out of QA and into dev if you can demonstrate aptitude for development tasks. Many people got their foot in the door this way, including myself. Anyway, I bet this was cathartic to write, but I dunno what I was supposed to take from this. Selling illicit goods is a high-risk endeavor?
- idlewords 12y ago
  I went to a school (Middlebury) with pretty generous financial aid and ended up owing ~80K in student loans after four years. I picked Middlebury in part because they were the only school of their type to offer full need-based financial aid. For reference, I graduated in 1997. 100K in American undergraduate debt unfortunately does not sound surprising.
- sanderjd 12y ago
  It's pretty easy! It's not hard to find schools where tuition and fees end up at about $20k/yr. Housing in many college towns is expensive, so that's another $5k/yr. Then there's normal cost of living, so lets call it another $2k/yr. Multiply by 4, take interest of lets say 3% into account, and hey presto, you're quite a ways over $100k! The even sadder thing is that those are fairly conservative numbers. Out of state tuition and fees at many state schools can get up to the $30k range (I went to CU-Boulder, which is apparently up to $33,151 now), $5k for housing is cheap, $2k for expenses is pretty low, and 3% interest is very low.
  - diminoten 12y ago
    The average amount of student debt from undergrad is $33k. How you go to three times that is difficult to comprehend. I'm not doubting the veracity of what he's written, but it's just surprising how different his experience is from what I'm familiar with.
serf 12y ago
It's interesting to read the story of someone else who has profited from the exploitation of video games. I did so from a more human perspective, I sold gold either bought from other player characters or harvested using automation in popular MMOs. I would have never thought of it as a business. My income was steady for 5 + years, and not a day went by where I didn't consider the possibility of the game company wiping out all of my 'assets' in entirety, leaving me penniless had I not saved, and worst -- jobless. Fun times. Thanks for writing this, although I think that "I would've been a great employee at..." is too speculative. It's so hard to say without actually doing it, it's not just your own skills/actions that you have to worry about in business.
mukyu 12y ago
It does not come off as credible to me without any actual details. The largest online games I can think of do not even have a market for items or do not even have servers/shards. Also why wouldn't you try to sell a dupe exploit to a gold seller like IGE. I know they buy them (and other exploits).
- Blackthorn 12y ago
  The level of ignorance from your comment is so high I don't even. The biggest online game from 2008 most certainly had both a market for items and a huge number of servers. It's not hard to figure out exactly what game he was referring to by thinking about it for a minute.
diziet 12y ago
One of the games in question is without doubt World of Warcraft, correct?
Igglyboo 12y ago
> "I know you're full of shit because I have connections in the elite crowd of the game hacking community. These are the two most popular games right now. My connections tell me it's impossible to duplicate items in either game, but you claim to have a dupe method for both. Don't waste my time by contacting me again." For some reason reading this quote really bothered me. Probably be it reinforces the theme that hacking is some magical art that can grant nuclear access codes to some random 13 year old slamming away on a keyboard, and this site owner bought into that and praises this "elite hacking community".
- Terr_ 12y ago
  I strongly doubt that's a direct quote. Even paraphrased, it doesn't make logical sense: It should be really easy to prove that you have a duping exploit in a game, so why didn't the prospective-buyer at least ask for a demonstration, or why didn't the OP offer such a demonstration? It's just too convenient. It's far more likely that OP was either unable to prove it or refused to do so, and the potential-buyer said "stop wasting my time then".
  - serf 12y ago
    > Even paraphrased, it doesn't make logical sense: It should be really easy to prove that you have a duping exploit in a game, so why didn't the prospective-buyer at least ask for a demonstration, or why didn't the OP offer such a demonstration? It's just too convenient. Agreed. Most dupe hacks are not found by report, but by database analytics. It's an extremely easy phenomena to spot, and in my experience the only games that allow such a problem to exist for any period of time are games that are either operated by a single person and lacking in employee resources to deal with the problem, or games that are so old that they are no longer concerned.
    - scobar 12y ago
      Thank you for explaining how easy it is for a game developer with plenty of resources to identify this type of exploit if used excessively enough to affect the game's economy. Everyone who's complaining about game exploiters seem to focus on the ones who've caused obvious damage to the game's economy. What about the ones who are subtle enough, and possibly will never be caught?
wglb 12y ago
As a former (in reality, and in some ways still internally) farmboy from Montana, I applaud the resourcefulness that 'scobar is displaying. Google may be a tough choice, as they do seem to favor PhDs. But you ('scobar) have a lot of talent and initiative and a very marketable skill set.
tomrod 12y ago
Scott-- Sorry to hear about the bad times. Don't quit, and don't let no discourage you!
morgante 12y ago
Don't you know how to code? (I'm not in the video game or affiliate marketing scene, but I'd assume hacking games & building websites requires some technical ability.) If you can code, it should be trivial to find a job of some sort regardless of your education.
- scobar 12y ago
  I've written programs for myself whenever I needed something that didn't exist (or I needed to improve), but I'm pretty certain I don't know as much as I should to consider myself a decent programmer. So, I'm learning as fast as I can. I didn't mean to imply I was still searching for employment; in fact I'm not. I'm working on a startup to help others who are struggling to get employed, and who (with better guidance) can acquire the skills employers want them to have. I considered the biggest adversity to be losing my father. He'd always been a pillar of support for me, and really showed me what unconditional love meant. I lost him right when I had to become that pillar for my own son. But the thread kind of blew up about how I'd struggled financially.
  - morgante 12y ago
    Ah, thanks for explaining — from the discussion of your job applications for Google and financial situation, I'd thought you were still seeking employment. Glad to hear that you're working on something! I can't even imagine the pain and adversity of losing your father, especially in such a rough period.
  - atomical 12y ago
    Link? Are you working for a startup or doing this in your spare time?
reduce 12y ago
Get out of Montana. Seems you already feel you should. Top people in top cities will laugh at the idea of a degree being everything as much as you do, probably more. I can't believe this has been up for 4 hours and I'm the first person to suggest this.
- wglb 12y ago
  Hey. Well, I actually did that when I went back east to college. But in today's world, you don't need to be anywhere. It wasn't that long ago that one of the top .net consultants lived in Billings, Montana. He, like many consultants, would fly out Sunday evening, and back on Thursday. And he also wrote a book or two. So today it is even easier to be remote and be a major contributor. As in 37 signals. I can't believe this has been up for 4 hours and I'm the first person to suggest this. Perhaps as the comment is a little harsh.
  - atomical 12y ago
    37 signals is an example of a remote company. It isn't an example of the abundance of remote jobs. Without the right experience and connections it will be hard to find a remote job.
mlangdon 12y ago
As the father of a three year old and an English BA holder in his second year professionally programming, I can relate. As someone who inputs on hiring, I would recommend that you become a serial project completer rather than just a starter. I don't get the impression of follow through, which is unfortunately what the unfinished degree also communicates. The only way to combat this is to choose smaller chunks (don't start with solving energy) and see them through to decisive conclusion. What is something you can build in six months that does not require government funding and also teaches you something for that bigger project?
- wmt 12y ago
  It's very typical for people in demanding positions to learn that even really good ideas are quite common and not even that valuable. Good execution of good ideas is however extremely rare and is also extremely valuable. The above recommendation is really really good. Anyone can start ambitious projects but only a rare few actually can finish them.
polarix 12y ago
> I just wished there were some way (beyond a traditional resume) that I could express how I truly would've been a great employee at Google[x]. Well, actually, there is -- the only thing that can express that would be making progress on the problem... If you're ready for a big dose of realism (and at the risk of fueling some dangerous fires), one can dig deeper into the trust disconnect that fuels acqui-hires here: https://michaelochurch.wordpress.com/2013/12/23/vc-istan-7-solving-the-wrong-problem/ https://michaelochurch.wordpress.com/2013/12/23/vc-istan-7-s...
nintendo1889 12y ago
Its sad, but people are idiots. A degree is only about existing knowledge and keeping the status quo, not about "innovation". Create a phony degree, someone who doesn't check backgrounds will hire you, and then your life will improve.
- nbevans 12y ago
  Seriously? A degree proves ones ability to learn.
h43k3r 12y ago
Hey get on www.instaedu.com You can learn 20$ an hour teaching computer science in your part time. You can easily make more than 60$ a day.
duckingtest 12y ago
I am jealous of your energy. One tip for quick and one time easy money, in similar vein to exploiting dupe bugs (especially when it comes to people dismissing it as impossible :) - sport betting odds arbitrage. Made ~35% in one month. At the end of it, I was banned almost everywhere, which is why it's an one time affair (unless you start to use fake identities - I didn't).
ownagefool 12y ago
There is no malice in my post but the author really needs to think about the world from other peoples perspectives. > I'm not a fan of your previous methods of making money. Not because I see things in binary or I have a strong desire to follow rules, but because I enjoy the sport of it. When using an exploit, you detract from that sport, whether doing it from the supplier side or whether you play the role of the kid walking about kicking over others sand castles, you are talking a stance that you don't give a toss about the victims and they're pretty well justified in feeling the same way about you. > If you want someone to give you money for a research grant or another type of funding, or even just a job, you're going to have to give them a reason to believe in you. Your life story may make them feel sad for you but it's not going to land you a well paying job. > The fact you've built a 'successful business' on a house of cards and either forgot to save or never made enough money to justify it in the first place is not something that reflects amazingly well on you. > If you want to be employed by someone else, you'll need to build a reputation. You can do that by taking an entry level job and working your way up, or by getting a degree and then taking an entry level job and working your way up. Unless you're doing some pretty prolific and utilised works, you're not gonna skip those entry level jobs. > You come across as a bit lazy or too cocky, always looking for the quick fix or to skip to the end. Fact is, a lot of people know enough to build things, few know enough to build things well. There's a lot of knowledge that is supposed to be passed down during those junior roles that you want to bypass. Still, like I said there's no malice here. I wish you all the best and I figure if you really have that much drive, you'll land on your feet eventually. But don't get caught in the trap that you're too good for QA work, you'll find most of your peers eat some dirt climbing the ladder, degree or no.
- scobar 12y ago
  Thank you for your comment. When I wrote the blog post, I had no idea it would be read by so many people. I wrote it thinking some friends, family, and acquaintances would be the majority of the audience. Those people already know who I am, and would understand that it was not written as a plea for more respect or attention, nor to seek employment. You are right, I'm not too good for QA work (remember I also delivered newspapers to make ends meet), but I couldn't afford to relocate and pay my monthly expenses on a QA job salary at that point in my life. Having been born in the US, I have it easy (even if I haven't taken full advantage of my privilege) compared with many others in the world. Your suggestion is to get an entry level job, or finish the degree first, then get an entry level job. I'm curious, is that is the same advice you'd offer to a non-US citizen? We take for granted how easy it is to climb the corporate ladder or get a degree, and our society values those indicators. It seems as if the objectives behind them have been forgotten though. What should be valued is humility, a good work ethic, and a solid education with curiosity to continue learning and improving. If one meets the objectives but hasn't accomplished the accepted indicators, then that person often faces prejudice (at least in the countries I've lived in). I'm not trying to imply I've met all of the desired objectives. I just strongly disagree with jumping through the necessary hoops to get ahead because everyone has to do it; especially if jumping through the hoops gets someone no closer to meeting the desired objective. I'm sorry for the rant. I hope you understand my response is not about me, but about how unfair I think it is that most are so fiercely judged by indicators rather than the characteristics they're meant to imply.
GFK_of_xmaspast 12y ago
That whole googlex thing and sending handwritten letters and more directly to Teller is a little creepy and verging on stalkerish.

163 points by scobar 12y ago

trose 12y ago

Am I supposed to feel sorry for someone that got caught exploiting online games?

dang 12y ago
I don't recall the article asking anyone to feel sorry.
scobar 12y ago
No, the post was more therapeutic for myself. I'd never found a crowd that could completely understand what happened that caused the night and day difference in my life at that point. To everyone in my social bubble (except my father and wife), I was simply a victim of the recession that began in 2008. A solid message you should take away from that post is: Life will throw you curve balls, and I'm genuinely grateful to have found a place like HN.

lmm 12y ago

I was expecting some kind of payoff at the end, but nope. Just a whole lot of money lost and little to show for it. Confidence is important but so is doubt. Not all ideas are good, and just believing in an idea isn't enough to make it a success. And the "safe" corporate jobs can be just as fulfilling in their own way.

nugget 12y ago

Great story. Many parallels to the performance marketing and affiliate worlds, where mostly young people stumble into great opportunities, usually exploiting loopholes or underserved markets such as this, and suddenly start printing a thousand dollars a day in profit. The vast majority of them know, deep down, that it can't last, but somehow still end up getting lulled into a feeling of complacency. That's the feeling I got from your post too. You are definitely not alone in your experience, and you already learned the most important lesson, which is you don't need anyone's permission to start a project and see if it works. If you're ever in a similar situation again, take the money day by day and remind yourself that at some point the ATM machine is going to shut down. Of the dozen or so liquid USD millionaire affiliates I knew in my 20s, I'd say half are bankrupt or close to it today.

5F36B5F62640 12y ago

You call it adversity. I call it karma. Your business was based on ruining games for ordinary players by exploiting bugs (in violation of your contract with the game operator) to duplicate items for sale for real-world currency. This messes up the game economy and it messes up the game balance.

scobar 12y ago
Perhaps you are right about the karma, but you should understand that I loved playing those games too. I knew I could have ruined their economies if I were careless or released the hacks publicly. I actually monitored a control group of servers where I did no duplication, and their economies were nearly identical to those where I did. Overall, I used the exploit on only about half the servers. If there had been a glaring difference, the game developer probably wouldn't have thought it impossible to have existed when I asked for a bounty to divulge it.

eclipxe 12y ago

Exploiting games for profit is not something to be proud of. It seems like you have some of the necessary skills to run a business, but you need to find a product that is not based on theft.

lucb1e 12y ago
Probably not, but I doubt he means to show off. To me it reads more like it shows his technical skill that companies he applied for seem to overlook.
smtddr 12y ago
>>Exploiting games for profit is not something to be proud of. If a candidate had on their resume a blog link with detailed explanation of a technical exploit in a videogame and how they profited by it... that'd be a +1 in my book.
nmjohn 12y ago
Who is being robbed? Throughout my teenage years I taught myself to program by writing bots to play mmorpgs for me then I would sell the gold. I made a fraction of what this guy did, but for a 13-17 year old I was doing quite well. I have no delusions that what I was doing was "virtuous" or benefiting the world and what have you. But by the same token I don't think what I did was the opposite of that either - I certainly wasn't selling a product based on theft as you put it. And in the end it's the main reason I'm a programmer today, nearly a decade later.
- Terr_ 12y ago
  The same people being "robbed" when you counterfeit money: It's divided across everybody else whose achievements and items are reduced in value.
  - nmjohn 12y ago
    Except that isn't at all the case. By botting a video game money isn't being created out of thin air like with counterfeiting. Resources are collected which are sold for gold pieces from other players. The difference may not feel like much - but it's night and day in terms of the practical economic implications.

Terr_ 12y ago

I read the whole post, and it's just left me with a strong sense of unease. A gut-feeling that strongly reminds me of self-stories I've heard from certain people in real life, among them a next-cubicle coworker who was eventually institutionalized. > When he finally responded, I was so excited that I sent him a long story (like this one) explaining my life, and gave him a link to a website with some of my ideas. After receiving no response, I realized how selfish I was to think he had time to read all of that. > I still had hope though, so I narrated all of it and sent him .mp3 files so he could listen to it while he was jogging or something. Putting your autobiography on tape for a prospective employer after already sending a text version... well, I think it's a sign. In all seriousness, I believe the author could see big personal benefits from some kind of professional counseling about this stuff, as opposed to throwing it all out on the internet.

dropit_sphere 12y ago
>I think the author needs some kind of mental help or therapy which I am not qualified to provide. Maybe, but I doubt it. This just seems like inexperience. It took me a very long time to figure out the transition between worlds that are about you (school) to worlds that are not about you (work). The transition is not one of "selfishness" as much as it's about perspective. PG describes the dichotomy well in "Two Kinds of Judgment:" http://paulgraham.com/judgement.html http://paulgraham.com/judgement.html Venkatesh Rao explains similar phenomena in his Gervais series: http://www.ribbonfarm.com/2009/10/07/the-gervais-principle-or-the-office-according-to-the-office/ http://www.ribbonfarm.com/2009/10/07/the-gervais-principle-o...
- scobar 12y ago
  Thank you for expressing it better than I had. When I tried to see my actions from his perspective, that's when I wanted to apologize.
  - dropit_sphere 12y ago
    If I were to give you some advice, it would be to: a)keep working at any job you can find. Wading through sewage for minimum wage? Take it. b) Spend as little money as possible. Put all your earnings in a big pile on the kitchen table if you have nothing else to do with them. Your wife may be able to help in terms of keeping expenses to a minimum. c)Since that job will most likely suck, spend off hours looking for a better job. Don't quit the first one until the second one is in the bag. Meanwhile, do good work at the first job. It's not like you're going to stick around for 20 years, so why not do great? d) Repeat steps a-c until you have enough saved up for EITHER a bachelor's in a technical field + living expenses for the time OR some other boring, predictable, spreadsheet-friendly investment. e) email me any time at dropit.sphere at google's email service if you need someone to talk to. I earned a perfect SAT score and am working as a valet, so I know how it is.

j_s 12y ago

Thanks for sharing your story Scott; I've lurked on HN far longer and never had the courage to stick my neck out like you have today. I hope this leads to something amazing for you and your family!

scobar 12y ago
Thank you so much for your kind comment. Like mentioned in another comment, my post was primarily meant to be cathartic. I didn't expect it to get much attention so I've been kind of overwhelmed by the responses.

johnnyg 12y ago

I think it is funny that the YC crowd points to "naughty" when it benefits them and says things like "Am I supposed to feel sorry for someone that got caught exploiting online games?" when it doesn't. When someone will take apart a game for fun, for better or for worse and often both, it is intrinsic. We praise capncrunch and damn this guy? I'm sorry you lost your parents Scott. Congratulations on your child and marriage. YC is a mixed bag but I feel home here too. There are a lot of ways to hack the world. I'm not sure if you've picked inconsistent/risky ones because of personality type/thrill or because it is where you landed. If its where you landed, move toward the center. Sounds like you've got the basic small business skills to sell many things and you don't require permission or motivation to do so. Consider hacking on your life instead of the games. What do you know that's inefficient where you are and could be interesting? I hear heavy equipment auctions are big and profitable in rural areas and I know from experience it is a space software hasn't touched. Pick a product or set of products (wave energy harvesting equipment?) and niche it via PPC. See what the market is like for them on eBay. Go with the black hat and get picked up by a security consulting firm. I've rarely seen them be degree choosy with people who have the chops. Don't make the mistake of thinking the only interesting things are on the fringes. Lastly, ignore the rest of the noise of this thread. Keep your head up. Stay interested. Stay playful.

diminoten 12y ago
> Go with the black hat and get picked up by a security consulting firm. Go with the black hat and end up in jail. Don't do this, guy. It's not worth it. Please do good. :-/
- johnnyg 12y ago
  I did not say that clearly. I mean if you like breaking things for fun, work for a digital security company and get paid to do it. Be the guy who is paid to do penetration tests and the like. That's "Black Hat" work turned to the good.
  - diminoten 12y ago
    Ah, no worries. To be fair, he's more or less already a "black hat" insofar that he's profited off of the arguably illegal use of computer systems. I wouldn't be so hasty to dismiss HN's attitude towards his previous company -- I think if he tries to get a job and cites his "dupe" work, he's going to be surprised how few folks will be willing to work with him. I work for a security firm (FireEye, woo we're hiring!) and while I'm not specifically on the consulting side, I get the sense that it's a very straight-laced bunch of folks who take their jobs incredibly seriously. You don't want to walk into an interview with a guy who works with the FBI on the regular and confess to constantly, repeatedly, and profitably committing a computer crime. It's just not going to work well for you, all moralization aside.

WrathOfJay 12y ago

Hey, it's great that you're trying to find a place for yourself in the world. Unfortunately, you seem to have a malfunctioning moral compass, and you give off a sociopath space-cadet vibe. Making money exploiting in video games and tricking weak-minded people into buying worthless shit is not a path to anything good. Stop trying to bullshit your way through life and if you're lucky you might just be OK.

freshflowers 12y ago
Sociopath may be a bridge too far, but there's definitely something very, very off about the way the author describes his scam as a business, and the apparent lack of emotion with which he describes the events in his life. It's cold and factual, and all "me, me, me".
- dang 12y ago
  How fascinating that we see such different things in the article. In the one I read, a guy puts his life on hold to take care of his dying father: I spent nearly every day helping him out. I couldn't bear to see him worry about me That's not "me, me, me", nor does it lack emotion, and certainly it refutes the (already self-refutingly silly) diagnosis of sociopathy. I wonder if there may be some crossed cultural signals here. Montana is not a place where people effuse.
  - Terr_ 12y ago
    Totally independently (there were 0 comments when I started reading) I've reached a gut feeling which I think closely mirrors WrathOfJay's. > > I couldn't bare to see him worry about me > That's not "me, me, me", nor does it lack emotion Switch the emphasis around, and he couldn't bear his future success being doubted. The story being told still comes back to the author's same universal preoccupation, which involves his own validation as a famous and successful person, or failing that one who is destined for it. No, I wouldn't call it sociopathy, but narcissism is definitely in the cards.
- Blackthorn 12y ago

diminoten 12y ago

How does someone get 100k in debt from undergrad? Is that a thing? I know folks with graduate and professional degrees from not-very-cheap institutions who aren't at the 100k mark. That's med school level. I too haven't graduated from college, and I have had no trouble finding work because of it. AOL wouldn't look at my resumé, and I assume other large companies won't either, but there are a ton of startups and other shops that will beg you to work for them if you demonstrate a clear ability to excel in their environment. This is probably the most non-graduate friendly career industry out there. Your first step should be to get a job, and QA sounds like a great place for you. You'd be surprised how easy it is to move out of QA and into dev if you can demonstrate aptitude for development tasks. Many people got their foot in the door this way, including myself. Anyway, I bet this was cathartic to write, but I dunno what I was supposed to take from this. Selling illicit goods is a high-risk endeavor?

idlewords 12y ago
I went to a school (Middlebury) with pretty generous financial aid and ended up owing ~80K in student loans after four years. I picked Middlebury in part because they were the only school of their type to offer full need-based financial aid. For reference, I graduated in 1997. 100K in American undergraduate debt unfortunately does not sound surprising.
sanderjd 12y ago
It's pretty easy! It's not hard to find schools where tuition and fees end up at about $20k/yr. Housing in many college towns is expensive, so that's another $5k/yr. Then there's normal cost of living, so lets call it another $2k/yr. Multiply by 4, take interest of lets say 3% into account, and hey presto, you're quite a ways over $100k! The even sadder thing is that those are fairly conservative numbers. Out of state tuition and fees at many state schools can get up to the $30k range (I went to CU-Boulder, which is apparently up to $33,151 now), $5k for housing is cheap, $2k for expenses is pretty low, and 3% interest is very low.
- diminoten 12y ago
  The average amount of student debt from undergrad is $33k. How you go to three times that is difficult to comprehend. I'm not doubting the veracity of what he's written, but it's just surprising how different his experience is from what I'm familiar with.

serf 12y ago

It's interesting to read the story of someone else who has profited from the exploitation of video games. I did so from a more human perspective, I sold gold either bought from other player characters or harvested using automation in popular MMOs. I would have never thought of it as a business. My income was steady for 5 + years, and not a day went by where I didn't consider the possibility of the game company wiping out all of my 'assets' in entirety, leaving me penniless had I not saved, and worst -- jobless. Fun times. Thanks for writing this, although I think that "I would've been a great employee at..." is too speculative. It's so hard to say without actually doing it, it's not just your own skills/actions that you have to worry about in business.

mukyu 12y ago

It does not come off as credible to me without any actual details. The largest online games I can think of do not even have a market for items or do not even have servers/shards. Also why wouldn't you try to sell a dupe exploit to a gold seller like IGE. I know they buy them (and other exploits).

Blackthorn 12y ago
The level of ignorance from your comment is so high I don't even. The biggest online game from 2008 most certainly had both a market for items and a huge number of servers. It's not hard to figure out exactly what game he was referring to by thinking about it for a minute.

diziet 12y ago

One of the games in question is without doubt World of Warcraft, correct?

Igglyboo 12y ago

> "I know you're full of shit because I have connections in the elite crowd of the game hacking community. These are the two most popular games right now. My connections tell me it's impossible to duplicate items in either game, but you claim to have a dupe method for both. Don't waste my time by contacting me again." For some reason reading this quote really bothered me. Probably be it reinforces the theme that hacking is some magical art that can grant nuclear access codes to some random 13 year old slamming away on a keyboard, and this site owner bought into that and praises this "elite hacking community".

Terr_ 12y ago
I strongly doubt that's a direct quote. Even paraphrased, it doesn't make logical sense: It should be really easy to prove that you have a duping exploit in a game, so why didn't the prospective-buyer at least ask for a demonstration, or why didn't the OP offer such a demonstration? It's just too convenient. It's far more likely that OP was either unable to prove it or refused to do so, and the potential-buyer said "stop wasting my time then".
- serf 12y ago
  > Even paraphrased, it doesn't make logical sense: It should be really easy to prove that you have a duping exploit in a game, so why didn't the prospective-buyer at least ask for a demonstration, or why didn't the OP offer such a demonstration? It's just too convenient. Agreed. Most dupe hacks are not found by report, but by database analytics. It's an extremely easy phenomena to spot, and in my experience the only games that allow such a problem to exist for any period of time are games that are either operated by a single person and lacking in employee resources to deal with the problem, or games that are so old that they are no longer concerned.
  - scobar 12y ago
    Thank you for explaining how easy it is for a game developer with plenty of resources to identify this type of exploit if used excessively enough to affect the game's economy. Everyone who's complaining about game exploiters seem to focus on the ones who've caused obvious damage to the game's economy. What about the ones who are subtle enough, and possibly will never be caught?

wglb 12y ago

As a former (in reality, and in some ways still internally) farmboy from Montana, I applaud the resourcefulness that 'scobar is displaying. Google may be a tough choice, as they do seem to favor PhDs. But you ('scobar) have a lot of talent and initiative and a very marketable skill set.

tomrod 12y ago

Scott-- Sorry to hear about the bad times. Don't quit, and don't let no discourage you!

morgante 12y ago

Don't you know how to code? (I'm not in the video game or affiliate marketing scene, but I'd assume hacking games & building websites requires some technical ability.) If you can code, it should be trivial to find a job of some sort regardless of your education.

scobar 12y ago
I've written programs for myself whenever I needed something that didn't exist (or I needed to improve), but I'm pretty certain I don't know as much as I should to consider myself a decent programmer. So, I'm learning as fast as I can. I didn't mean to imply I was still searching for employment; in fact I'm not. I'm working on a startup to help others who are struggling to get employed, and who (with better guidance) can acquire the skills employers want them to have. I considered the biggest adversity to be losing my father. He'd always been a pillar of support for me, and really showed me what unconditional love meant. I lost him right when I had to become that pillar for my own son. But the thread kind of blew up about how I'd struggled financially.
- morgante 12y ago
  Ah, thanks for explaining — from the discussion of your job applications for Google and financial situation, I'd thought you were still seeking employment. Glad to hear that you're working on something! I can't even imagine the pain and adversity of losing your father, especially in such a rough period.
- atomical 12y ago
  Link? Are you working for a startup or doing this in your spare time?

reduce 12y ago

Get out of Montana. Seems you already feel you should. Top people in top cities will laugh at the idea of a degree being everything as much as you do, probably more. I can't believe this has been up for 4 hours and I'm the first person to suggest this.

wglb 12y ago
Hey. Well, I actually did that when I went back east to college. But in today's world, you don't need to be anywhere. It wasn't that long ago that one of the top .net consultants lived in Billings, Montana. He, like many consultants, would fly out Sunday evening, and back on Thursday. And he also wrote a book or two. So today it is even easier to be remote and be a major contributor. As in 37 signals. I can't believe this has been up for 4 hours and I'm the first person to suggest this. Perhaps as the comment is a little harsh.
- atomical 12y ago
  37 signals is an example of a remote company. It isn't an example of the abundance of remote jobs. Without the right experience and connections it will be hard to find a remote job.

mlangdon 12y ago

As the father of a three year old and an English BA holder in his second year professionally programming, I can relate. As someone who inputs on hiring, I would recommend that you become a serial project completer rather than just a starter. I don't get the impression of follow through, which is unfortunately what the unfinished degree also communicates. The only way to combat this is to choose smaller chunks (don't start with solving energy) and see them through to decisive conclusion. What is something you can build in six months that does not require government funding and also teaches you something for that bigger project?

wmt 12y ago
It's very typical for people in demanding positions to learn that even really good ideas are quite common and not even that valuable. Good execution of good ideas is however extremely rare and is also extremely valuable. The above recommendation is really really good. Anyone can start ambitious projects but only a rare few actually can finish them.

polarix 12y ago

> I just wished there were some way (beyond a traditional resume) that I could express how I truly would've been a great employee at Google[x]. Well, actually, there is -- the only thing that can express that would be making progress on the problem... If you're ready for a big dose of realism (and at the risk of fueling some dangerous fires), one can dig deeper into the trust disconnect that fuels acqui-hires here: https://michaelochurch.wordpress.com/2013/12/23/vc-istan-7-solving-the-wrong-problem/ https://michaelochurch.wordpress.com/2013/12/23/vc-istan-7-s...

nintendo1889 12y ago

Its sad, but people are idiots. A degree is only about existing knowledge and keeping the status quo, not about "innovation". Create a phony degree, someone who doesn't check backgrounds will hire you, and then your life will improve.

nbevans 12y ago
Seriously? A degree proves ones ability to learn.

h43k3r 12y ago

Hey get on www.instaedu.com You can learn 20$ an hour teaching computer science in your part time. You can easily make more than 60$ a day.

duckingtest 12y ago

I am jealous of your energy. One tip for quick and one time easy money, in similar vein to exploiting dupe bugs (especially when it comes to people dismissing it as impossible :) - sport betting odds arbitrage. Made ~35% in one month. At the end of it, I was banned almost everywhere, which is why it's an one time affair (unless you start to use fake identities - I didn't).

ownagefool 12y ago

There is no malice in my post but the author really needs to think about the world from other peoples perspectives. > I'm not a fan of your previous methods of making money. Not because I see things in binary or I have a strong desire to follow rules, but because I enjoy the sport of it. When using an exploit, you detract from that sport, whether doing it from the supplier side or whether you play the role of the kid walking about kicking over others sand castles, you are talking a stance that you don't give a toss about the victims and they're pretty well justified in feeling the same way about you. > If you want someone to give you money for a research grant or another type of funding, or even just a job, you're going to have to give them a reason to believe in you. Your life story may make them feel sad for you but it's not going to land you a well paying job. > The fact you've built a 'successful business' on a house of cards and either forgot to save or never made enough money to justify it in the first place is not something that reflects amazingly well on you. > If you want to be employed by someone else, you'll need to build a reputation. You can do that by taking an entry level job and working your way up, or by getting a degree and then taking an entry level job and working your way up. Unless you're doing some pretty prolific and utilised works, you're not gonna skip those entry level jobs. > You come across as a bit lazy or too cocky, always looking for the quick fix or to skip to the end. Fact is, a lot of people know enough to build things, few know enough to build things well. There's a lot of knowledge that is supposed to be passed down during those junior roles that you want to bypass. Still, like I said there's no malice here. I wish you all the best and I figure if you really have that much drive, you'll land on your feet eventually. But don't get caught in the trap that you're too good for QA work, you'll find most of your peers eat some dirt climbing the ladder, degree or no.

scobar 12y ago
Thank you for your comment. When I wrote the blog post, I had no idea it would be read by so many people. I wrote it thinking some friends, family, and acquaintances would be the majority of the audience. Those people already know who I am, and would understand that it was not written as a plea for more respect or attention, nor to seek employment. You are right, I'm not too good for QA work (remember I also delivered newspapers to make ends meet), but I couldn't afford to relocate and pay my monthly expenses on a QA job salary at that point in my life. Having been born in the US, I have it easy (even if I haven't taken full advantage of my privilege) compared with many others in the world. Your suggestion is to get an entry level job, or finish the degree first, then get an entry level job. I'm curious, is that is the same advice you'd offer to a non-US citizen? We take for granted how easy it is to climb the corporate ladder or get a degree, and our society values those indicators. It seems as if the objectives behind them have been forgotten though. What should be valued is humility, a good work ethic, and a solid education with curiosity to continue learning and improving. If one meets the objectives but hasn't accomplished the accepted indicators, then that person often faces prejudice (at least in the countries I've lived in). I'm not trying to imply I've met all of the desired objectives. I just strongly disagree with jumping through the necessary hoops to get ahead because everyone has to do it; especially if jumping through the hoops gets someone no closer to meeting the desired objective. I'm sorry for the rant. I hope you understand my response is not about me, but about how unfair I think it is that most are so fiercely judged by indicators rather than the characteristics they're meant to imply.

GFK_of_xmaspast 12y ago

That whole googlex thing and sending handwritten letters and more directly to Teller is a little creepy and verging on stalkerish.