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Abortion is also irreversible, yet discouraging women who want to abort their pregnancy from doing so is considered in bad taste by most liberals.

by lmz 12y ago

cldellow 12y ago
More nuance, please! I think most women have thought about abortion to some degree and formed an opinion on whether it's the right choice for them, or under what conditions they would entertain the idea of an abortion versus keeping the child in an unexpected pregnancy. In these cases, you're right: discouraging women who have thought about the process would be seen as in bad taste. But what if the woman was being pressured to abort (or to keep) the child by outside pressure? Then intervention would be seen as supporting the woman, not as interfering, and it'd be in good taste. IMO, suicide is very similar. A large proportion of suicide attempts are people who go on to regret it and successfully seek treatment. I don't think it's too much of a leap from that to the idea that a large proportion of suicides themselves are being done for the wrong reasons, i.e. the "outside pressure" of a brain that is suffering a mental illness.
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
- lmz 12y ago
  I think most people who choose to commit suicide have given it a good few months or more of thinking. How long do people have to suffer in order for you to say "this person's done enough thinking about it, he can go"?
  - Jtsummers 12y ago
    > I think most people who choose to commit suicide have given it a good few months or more of thinking. [citation needed] Most seems unlikely to me, at least for first attempts.
  - anigbrowl 12y ago
    Speaking from experience, I disagree. I'm in favor of a generalized right to commit suicide as a fundamental ground of self-determination, but it can often be a compulsive rather a considered action; furthermore it can be based on a fundamentally irrational discounting of the future ('I'll never be happy again, my life can only get worse') which may be merely temporary or the result of developmental delays/deficits in handling emotional swings.
- thaumasiotes 12y ago
  > A large proportion of suicide attempts are people who go on to regret it and successfully seek treatment. A different conclusion you could draw from this are that the failed attempts failed because they weren't really trying to kill themselves, a sort of regretting-in-advance, if you will. I feel pretty safe in saying that successful suicide attempts don't go on to regret it, and it's not at all obvious that the failures and the successes are examples of the same phenomenon.
ux-app 12y ago
that's a horrible comparison
- lmz 12y ago
  And why is that? It's her body and she has the right to remove the fetus in her. Why does she not have the right to put a tankful of Nitrogen in her lungs if she chooses to do so?
  - ux-app 12y ago
    Your statement implied that there was much in common with the two scenarios. There isn't. Therefore it's a bad comparison. fwiw I'm pro choice on both issues.
    - lmz 12y ago
      And I am too. I am not anti abortion I am pro voluntary suicide. "Just go to therapy it will be better" vs "Give the baby a chance you might grow to love it". How is it any different?
      - ux-app 12y ago
        Suicide in otherwise healthy individuals is (imo) a mental health issue. Abortion is not. Your initial comment that I responded to implied that discouraging suicide is or should be in bad taste. I don't agree with this statement. My position is predicated on the assumption that life is better than death.
        lmz 12y ago
        My position sees death as a permanent zero. If your life is continually in the negatives and you have to work every day to keep it there then putting it at zero permanently without any more effort required seems a good deal to me.
        12y ago

Abortion is also irreversible, yet discouraging women who want to abort their pregnancy from doing so is considered in bad taste by most liberals.

by lmz 12y ago

Abortion is also irreversible, yet discouraging women who want to abort their pregnancy from doing so is considered in bad taste by most liberals.

cldellow 12y ago

More nuance, please! I think most women have thought about abortion to some degree and formed an opinion on whether it's the right choice for them, or under what conditions they would entertain the idea of an abortion versus keeping the child in an unexpected pregnancy. In these cases, you're right: discouraging women who have thought about the process would be seen as in bad taste. But what if the woman was being pressured to abort (or to keep) the child by outside pressure? Then intervention would be seen as supporting the woman, not as interfering, and it'd be in good taste. IMO, suicide is very similar. A large proportion of suicide attempts are people who go on to regret it and successfully seek treatment. I don't think it's too much of a leap from that to the idea that a large proportion of suicides themselves are being done for the wrong reasons, i.e. the "outside pressure" of a brain that is suffering a mental illness.

deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
lmz 12y ago
I think most people who choose to commit suicide have given it a good few months or more of thinking. How long do people have to suffer in order for you to say "this person's done enough thinking about it, he can go"?
- Jtsummers 12y ago
  > I think most people who choose to commit suicide have given it a good few months or more of thinking. [citation needed] Most seems unlikely to me, at least for first attempts.
- anigbrowl 12y ago
  Speaking from experience, I disagree. I'm in favor of a generalized right to commit suicide as a fundamental ground of self-determination, but it can often be a compulsive rather a considered action; furthermore it can be based on a fundamentally irrational discounting of the future ('I'll never be happy again, my life can only get worse') which may be merely temporary or the result of developmental delays/deficits in handling emotional swings.
thaumasiotes 12y ago
> A large proportion of suicide attempts are people who go on to regret it and successfully seek treatment. A different conclusion you could draw from this are that the failed attempts failed because they weren't really trying to kill themselves, a sort of regretting-in-advance, if you will. I feel pretty safe in saying that successful suicide attempts don't go on to regret it, and it's not at all obvious that the failures and the successes are examples of the same phenomenon.

ux-app 12y ago

that's a horrible comparison

lmz 12y ago
And why is that? It's her body and she has the right to remove the fetus in her. Why does she not have the right to put a tankful of Nitrogen in her lungs if she chooses to do so?
- ux-app 12y ago
  Your statement implied that there was much in common with the two scenarios. There isn't. Therefore it's a bad comparison. fwiw I'm pro choice on both issues.
  - lmz 12y ago
    And I am too. I am not anti abortion I am pro voluntary suicide. "Just go to therapy it will be better" vs "Give the baby a chance you might grow to love it". How is it any different?
    - ux-app 12y ago
      Suicide in otherwise healthy individuals is (imo) a mental health issue. Abortion is not. Your initial comment that I responded to implied that discouraging suicide is or should be in bad taste. I don't agree with this statement. My position is predicated on the assumption that life is better than death.
      - lmz 12y ago
        My position sees death as a permanent zero. If your life is continually in the negatives and you have to work every day to keep it there then putting it at zero permanently without any more effort required seems a good deal to me.
        12y ago