5 ms·

that's why anti-trust laws exist. If we break them up as they grow, we still reap the benefits of economic growth without the dangers of the monopoly.

by rtpg 12y ago

dkarapetyan 12y ago
Sure but that still doesn't address the actual problem and from a certain viewpoint two companies doing the same thing is less efficient than a large company doing it because of economies of scale. So which is it? Do we want efficiency or fairness?
- jamespo 12y ago
  Maybe we should no longer have elections as there's a lot of duplication between > 1 political parties too
  - bibonix 12y ago
    Indeed :)
  - dkarapetyan 12y ago
    There is an entire field of mathematics dedicated to answering such questions and the answer is a lot more complicated than your simple quip. In fact the way most democracies are set up they are theoretically much less optimal than they could be and in some cases are as good as dictatorial systems because of susceptibility to being rigged. As usual wikipedia is a pretty good starting point: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voting_system https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voting_system.
    - ende 12y ago
      Would you mind slapping a name on said field of mathematics, because I dig that stuff but only ever stumble upon smatterings of it here and there. I'd love to get to the core of that field. Its like game theory + lots of other stuff. (Sorry for off topic)
      - nitrogen 12y ago
        There might be something here: http://zesty.ca/voting/sim/ http://zesty.ca/voting/sim/
      - dkarapetyan 12y ago
        It's not one specific subfield but a combination. A good starting place though is probably social choice theory with a bit of a background on Arrow's impossibility theorem: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arrow%27s_impossibility_theorem http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arrow%27s_impossibility_theorem.
      - ende 12y ago
        Awesome. Thank you both!
- alphadevx 12y ago
  Fairness. When would we ever want anything that is efficiently unfair? Two companies doing the same thing brings the benefits of competition, which forces down prices, promotes innovation, and actually increases efficiency as they have to be better than their rival. In addition, no reason why both of them cannot be large enough to benefit from economies of scale (think Samsung vs Apple for smartphones).
Omniusaspirer 12y ago
That worked fine before the modern global economy. Now? It's the death-knell for industry in your country. Without a global government agreement you simply can't bust up megacorps like you used to- they're effectively above the law.
- davidw 12y ago
  Why does Google hide a bunch of search results in Europe if they are above the law? It seems to me that your statement is in error.
  - yulaow 12y ago
    Google also avoid to pay almost all the taxes it should in EU without anyone capable to stop them. The same thing is done by the others megacorps
    - davidw 12y ago
      Actually, it looks like you, too, may be incorrect, in that they're working to crack down on just that: http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/ba95cff0-4fcd-11e4-a0a4-00144feab7de.html http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/ba95cff0-4fcd-11e4-a0a4-00144... Also, in the United States, Amazon has generally not fared well when it came to avoiding collecting local taxes when local authorities decided to put their feet down: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amazon_tax http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amazon_tax
      - yulaow 12y ago
        As an eu citizen I knew that, and I can tell you they are "working on it" since decades of years (almost since Apple for the first time implemented it around the '80s), Nothing changed because Ireland doesn't want to change its taxation because the corps on its field lobby under the threat to move to another country, and the EU commission has not the power to impose the change to Ireland.
    - vixin 12y ago
      If Google 'should' pay taxes and have not, why haven't they been taken to court? That's tax evasion. Tax avoidance is what sensible people do. You look at the rules, follow them and minimize your tax bill. Google's shareholders also expect no less. No one can stop them (Google)? Of course they can. It's up to countries to change their tax laws if they think they are not fit for the job.

that's why anti-trust laws exist. If we break them up as they grow, we still reap the benefits of economic growth without the dangers of the monopoly.

by rtpg 12y ago

that's why anti-trust laws exist. If we break them up as they grow, we still reap the benefits of economic growth without the dangers of the monopoly.

dkarapetyan 12y ago

Sure but that still doesn't address the actual problem and from a certain viewpoint two companies doing the same thing is less efficient than a large company doing it because of economies of scale. So which is it? Do we want efficiency or fairness?

jamespo 12y ago
Maybe we should no longer have elections as there's a lot of duplication between > 1 political parties too
- bibonix 12y ago
  Indeed :)
- dkarapetyan 12y ago
  There is an entire field of mathematics dedicated to answering such questions and the answer is a lot more complicated than your simple quip. In fact the way most democracies are set up they are theoretically much less optimal than they could be and in some cases are as good as dictatorial systems because of susceptibility to being rigged. As usual wikipedia is a pretty good starting point: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voting_system https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voting_system.
  - ende 12y ago
    Would you mind slapping a name on said field of mathematics, because I dig that stuff but only ever stumble upon smatterings of it here and there. I'd love to get to the core of that field. Its like game theory + lots of other stuff. (Sorry for off topic)
    - nitrogen 12y ago
      There might be something here: http://zesty.ca/voting/sim/ http://zesty.ca/voting/sim/
    - dkarapetyan 12y ago
      It's not one specific subfield but a combination. A good starting place though is probably social choice theory with a bit of a background on Arrow's impossibility theorem: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arrow%27s_impossibility_theorem http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arrow%27s_impossibility_theorem.
    - ende 12y ago
      Awesome. Thank you both!
alphadevx 12y ago
Fairness. When would we ever want anything that is efficiently unfair? Two companies doing the same thing brings the benefits of competition, which forces down prices, promotes innovation, and actually increases efficiency as they have to be better than their rival. In addition, no reason why both of them cannot be large enough to benefit from economies of scale (think Samsung vs Apple for smartphones).

Omniusaspirer 12y ago

That worked fine before the modern global economy. Now? It's the death-knell for industry in your country. Without a global government agreement you simply can't bust up megacorps like you used to- they're effectively above the law.

davidw 12y ago
Why does Google hide a bunch of search results in Europe if they are above the law? It seems to me that your statement is in error.
- yulaow 12y ago
  Google also avoid to pay almost all the taxes it should in EU without anyone capable to stop them. The same thing is done by the others megacorps
  - davidw 12y ago
    Actually, it looks like you, too, may be incorrect, in that they're working to crack down on just that: http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/ba95cff0-4fcd-11e4-a0a4-00144feab7de.html http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/ba95cff0-4fcd-11e4-a0a4-00144... Also, in the United States, Amazon has generally not fared well when it came to avoiding collecting local taxes when local authorities decided to put their feet down: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amazon_tax http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amazon_tax
    - yulaow 12y ago
      As an eu citizen I knew that, and I can tell you they are "working on it" since decades of years (almost since Apple for the first time implemented it around the '80s), Nothing changed because Ireland doesn't want to change its taxation because the corps on its field lobby under the threat to move to another country, and the EU commission has not the power to impose the change to Ireland.
  - vixin 12y ago
    If Google 'should' pay taxes and have not, why haven't they been taken to court? That's tax evasion. Tax avoidance is what sensible people do. You look at the rules, follow them and minimize your tax bill. Google's shareholders also expect no less. No one can stop them (Google)? Of course they can. It's up to countries to change their tax laws if they think they are not fit for the job.