5 ms·

Victoria, Central and Jubilee are all "driverless". But they have drivers. There are actual reasons for this.

masklinn 12y ago
What "actual reasons" aside from inertia? The section danielbln linked to are UTO, they're fully automated and unattended (some of the trains don't even have a driver cabin, passengers can seat at the very front of the train) and most have been running for years if not decades without incidents (that I know of).
- vidarh 12y ago
  RMT (the union) mainly (there may be actual technical reasons too for some lines, but any technical reasons are likely to largely be a result of knowing that there's no point in investing too aggressively in enabling full automation if they won't be able to make full use of it). Notice the page takes care to point out that current drivers jobs are safe. It's likely that London Underground is basically betting it'll be easier to just hire at less than the replacement rate and gradually automate more and more rather than risk massive conflict with the RMT for years.
simpleigh 12y ago
Care to share any? Reasons I can think of: Existing automation may be insufficiently good to cope with adverse weather and unplanned situations. Technology has moved on considerably since the Victoria, Central and Jubilee stock. We're automating cars now, after all. The article mentions a new signalling system being rolled out in support. Lack of platform-edge doors. TfL have stated they won't run driverless trains without these. These are planned for installation on the Piccadilly line as part of the new stock rollout.
- sthulbourn 12y ago
  The line is equipped with an Automatic Train Operation system (ATO); the train operator (driver) closes the train doors and presses a pair of "start" buttons, and if the way ahead is clear, the ATO drives the train at a safe speed to the next station and stops it there. This system has operated since the line opened in 1968, making the Victoria line the world's first full-scale automatic railway.[20] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victoria_line http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victoria_line
- ealexhudson 12y ago
  Platform edge doors is definitely part of it - people get stuck in the gap, children fall through, there's few practical driverless systems that can cope with that. Yet there are some places - e.g. Central line - where the gap is almost a foot between train and platform. The doors aren't the only problem, it's the whole carriage, on those curved sections.
- TheOtherHobbes 12y ago
  One of the actual reasons is that drivers go through intensive training (er...) as first-call engineers. If a fault stops a train, it's far more useful to have someone on the scene to try emergency repairs than to wait until the train can be cleared from a tunnel - because a stopped train can literally hold up the commute of millions of people. There are also safety issues. Drivers are trained in passenger management, and every so often they need that training to deal with fights, illness, suicides, or all the other messy things that happen on a public transport system - the public part of that being at least as important as the transport part.
  - michaelt 12y ago
    Drivers are trained in passenger management, and every so often they need that training to deal with fights, illness, suicides, or all the other messy things that happen on a public transport system As I understand it in a lot of the London trains it's not possible to move between carriages - so the driver can only deal with fights, illness, suicides etc over CCTV or by stopping at a station?
    - yangyang 12y ago
      There are doors but they are not for use in normal circumstances. The new Victoria Line trains were initially supposed to be "space trains", open all the way through, but didn't actually end up getting built like that.
  - deleted 12y ago
    [deleted]
gadders 12y ago
Unions?
- SideburnsOfDoom 12y ago
  Only one Union: The mighty RMT http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Union_of_Rail,_Maritime_and_Transport_Workers http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Union_of_Rail,_Maritim... it was until recently headed by the late great Bob Crow http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-26527325 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-26527325
  - gadders 12y ago
    I work in Canary Wharf. I'm more than familiar with the RMT :-)

What "actual reasons" aside from inertia? The section danielbln linked to are UTO, they're fully automated and unattended (some of the trains don't even have a driver cabin, passengers can seat at the very front of the train) and most have been running for years if not decades without incidents (that I know of).

vidarh 12y ago
RMT (the union) mainly (there may be actual technical reasons too for some lines, but any technical reasons are likely to largely be a result of knowing that there's no point in investing too aggressively in enabling full automation if they won't be able to make full use of it). Notice the page takes care to point out that current drivers jobs are safe. It's likely that London Underground is basically betting it'll be easier to just hire at less than the replacement rate and gradually automate more and more rather than risk massive conflict with the RMT for years.

simpleigh 12y ago

Care to share any? Reasons I can think of: Existing automation may be insufficiently good to cope with adverse weather and unplanned situations. Technology has moved on considerably since the Victoria, Central and Jubilee stock. We're automating cars now, after all. The article mentions a new signalling system being rolled out in support. Lack of platform-edge doors. TfL have stated they won't run driverless trains without these. These are planned for installation on the Piccadilly line as part of the new stock rollout.

sthulbourn 12y ago
The line is equipped with an Automatic Train Operation system (ATO); the train operator (driver) closes the train doors and presses a pair of "start" buttons, and if the way ahead is clear, the ATO drives the train at a safe speed to the next station and stops it there. This system has operated since the line opened in 1968, making the Victoria line the world's first full-scale automatic railway.[20] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victoria_line http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victoria_line
ealexhudson 12y ago
Platform edge doors is definitely part of it - people get stuck in the gap, children fall through, there's few practical driverless systems that can cope with that. Yet there are some places - e.g. Central line - where the gap is almost a foot between train and platform. The doors aren't the only problem, it's the whole carriage, on those curved sections.
TheOtherHobbes 12y ago
One of the actual reasons is that drivers go through intensive training (er...) as first-call engineers. If a fault stops a train, it's far more useful to have someone on the scene to try emergency repairs than to wait until the train can be cleared from a tunnel - because a stopped train can literally hold up the commute of millions of people. There are also safety issues. Drivers are trained in passenger management, and every so often they need that training to deal with fights, illness, suicides, or all the other messy things that happen on a public transport system - the public part of that being at least as important as the transport part.
- michaelt 12y ago
  Drivers are trained in passenger management, and every so often they need that training to deal with fights, illness, suicides, or all the other messy things that happen on a public transport system As I understand it in a lot of the London trains it's not possible to move between carriages - so the driver can only deal with fights, illness, suicides etc over CCTV or by stopping at a station?
  - yangyang 12y ago
    There are doors but they are not for use in normal circumstances. The new Victoria Line trains were initially supposed to be "space trains", open all the way through, but didn't actually end up getting built like that.
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]

gadders 12y ago

Unions?

SideburnsOfDoom 12y ago
Only one Union: The mighty RMT http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Union_of_Rail,_Maritime_and_Transport_Workers http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Union_of_Rail,_Maritim... it was until recently headed by the late great Bob Crow http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-26527325 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-26527325
- gadders 12y ago
  I work in Canary Wharf. I'm more than familiar with the RMT :-)