6 ms·

>> Air-cooled carriages Got very excited when I saw this then noticed they won't be out for at least another 6 years. I haven't been in London long but the tem

>> Air-cooled carriages Got very excited when I saw this then noticed they won't be out for at least another 6 years. I haven't been in London long but the temperature of the tube is the worst part of the experience for me. The congestion isn't pleasant but if the temperature was bearable the congestion wouldn't be so bad.

nodata 12y ago
It says air cooled, not AC. Up until now at least they didn't have a way to get rid of all the heat from that depth. Either they've fixed that now, or it's just air blowing around.
- k-mcgrady 12y ago
  Yeah, I doubt it's going to make a huge difference but any improvement is welcome. I was reading something recently (may have been on HN) about the difficulties of removing heat from that depth. Maybe they've come up with a solution.
  - zimpenfish 12y ago
    They should talk to these people - http://www.technologyreview.com/news/531526/an-industrial-sized-generator-that-runs-on-waste-heat-using-no-fuel/ http://www.technologyreview.com/news/531526/an-industrial-si... (on the HN front page a few hours ago)
iamben 12y ago
I couldn't agree with you more. I wish they'd sorted the heat issue on the new Routemaster Buses. Even with the 'cooling', they were unbearable this summer.
regularfry 12y ago
Interestingly, when they were first brought into use they were renowned for being cold. In the intervening period the continual use has heated the surrounding ground enough to make air temperature a problem.
Shivetya 12y ago
Well that was one part of the presentation that surprised me, I never expected the trains to not be cooled and heated. This may be simple ignorance on my part having not used most public transport systems, so is this common for underground services? How is humidity on these lines?
- ido 12y ago
  London has very mild weather. In developed countries public transit is usually climate controlled in less mild climates.
- iaskwhy 12y ago
  Here's an infographic for temperatures: http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2009/08/24/article-1208723-062B1811000005DC-35_468x591.jpg http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2009/08/24/article-1208723-06... The original article: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1208723/Cooking-Central-Line--map-shows-hot-spots-London-Underground-unfit-transporting-cattle.html http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1208723/Cooking-Cent...
- msmithstubbs 12y ago
  Part of the problem is that much of the London tube is quite deep underground. New trains on the sub-surface lines have air conditioning, but on the deeper lines it's difficult to extract the waste heat. It can be a problem in summer. I've seen a couple of passengers faint from the heat on hot days.
- davb 12y ago
  I was surprised on my first visit to London to see posters advising passengers to carry a bottle of water and not travel when sick due to the heat and humidity on the underground. We'd get on at one station freshly showered and hydrated then get off at another drenched in sweat and ready to pass out. We used the tube extensively on our visit and it was by far the most uncomfortable (from an environmental perspective) public transport system we've used. I'm not sure what makes the London underground so different from the systems in Glasgow (admittedly very small), Munich, Barcelona or LA. Perhaps it really is so much deeper under ground. That said, the contactless payment system was fantastic. Being able to use my credit card to move around the city without buying a separate ticket was very convenient.
bloat 12y ago
For a peak into the future: go on the Metropolitan / Hammersmith & City line. They already have them there.
theoh 12y ago
Note that the deep-level lines (specifically those with smaller tunnels) are not included in this development. The central line has very small tunnels and will continue to be hot and cramped.
- dzhiurgis 12y ago
  Can't you cool the line with AC that pumps out heat outside?
  - vidarh 12y ago
    You can, but cooling the line means cooling far more than just cooling the train cabins - passengers only accounts for something like 5% of the heat dumped into the underground, the vast majority is things like braking. And so costs of standard AC is an issue. You also need somewhere to dump the heat, and part of the problem is actually that even re-opening existing vents is tricky and/or costly to do when many of these lines for most of their distance are 20m below some of the most expensive real-estate in the world.
    - coob 12y ago
      Trains of ice? Store the heat as water and run them through slowly overnight. Freeze again on the surface during the day. Edit: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/5058362.stm http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/5058362.stm
- jonrimmer 12y ago
  Wrong, wrong, wrong. This announcement is specifically about the deep-level lines. Read the details: http://www.tfl.gov.uk/campaign/new-tube-for-london http://www.tfl.gov.uk/campaign/new-tube-for-london The new trains, platform-edge doors, and air-cooling are being introduced for the Central, Bakerloo, Waterloo & City, and Piccadilly lines. The tunnels and trains will still be small, there's not much that can be done about that, but they will be cooler, safer and hopefully a little less cramped, due to the extra capacity provided by walk-through carriages.
dzhiurgis 12y ago
Personally I hate the dust in the stations. Also it seems nothing ever gets cleaned there. Stations in Taipei were perfectly clean. Also, the seats in the carriage are designed for goblins. The London population grows not only in quantity, but also in height. It would be nice to have just few seats for taller people.
- k-mcgrady 12y ago
  >> "It would be nice to have just few seats for taller people." Why bother? How often do you actually get a seat. Personally I think things would be so much easier if they removed seats altogether. People would have more space or they would get more people on. I know this isn't feasible as there are people that require seats but those people are low in number so maybe there could be a dedicated car with seats on each train for those people.
  - dzhiurgis 12y ago
    That is actually quite good idea. Personally I do not use tube for daily commute, just once in a while and try not to travel peak times, so getting a seat works for me. Although I mostly try stand after 8 hrs of sitting at work.
- jonrimmer 12y ago
  The Taipei metro began operating in 1996, whereas the London Underground began operating in 1863. You can't really compare the two. The newest parts of the Underground, such as the Jubilee Line Extension that opened in 1999 are very clean, modern and spacious, but it's impossible to retroactively improve the rest of the network to the same standards while it's being constantly used by millions of people every day.
  - dzhiurgis 12y ago
    I wouldn't dare to say they are very clean. They are bit more cleaner than the old ones. The point is - nobody bothers to clean them.
bnastic 12y ago
District line (and Hammersmith/Circle) already have these train. Aircon on full blast. It's everything I imagined it would be.
- vidarh 12y ago
  District line does not have those trains, as these trains are aimed at the (much smaller) deep level tube tunnels. The subsurface lines have the luxury of much more space for air con, wider tunnels to carry away waste heat, and sections out in the open.
  - jamescun 12y ago
    I think he was referring to the S8 stock currently on the Hammersmith & City, Circle and Metropolitan lines (and being trialed on the District line https://twitter.com/jamescun/status/516498515963695105 https://twitter.com/jamescun/status/516498515963695105) which have air-conditioning.

nodata 12y ago

It says air cooled, not AC. Up until now at least they didn't have a way to get rid of all the heat from that depth. Either they've fixed that now, or it's just air blowing around.

k-mcgrady 12y ago
Yeah, I doubt it's going to make a huge difference but any improvement is welcome. I was reading something recently (may have been on HN) about the difficulties of removing heat from that depth. Maybe they've come up with a solution.
- zimpenfish 12y ago
  They should talk to these people - http://www.technologyreview.com/news/531526/an-industrial-sized-generator-that-runs-on-waste-heat-using-no-fuel/ http://www.technologyreview.com/news/531526/an-industrial-si... (on the HN front page a few hours ago)

iamben 12y ago

I couldn't agree with you more. I wish they'd sorted the heat issue on the new Routemaster Buses. Even with the 'cooling', they were unbearable this summer.

regularfry 12y ago

Interestingly, when they were first brought into use they were renowned for being cold. In the intervening period the continual use has heated the surrounding ground enough to make air temperature a problem.

Shivetya 12y ago

Well that was one part of the presentation that surprised me, I never expected the trains to not be cooled and heated. This may be simple ignorance on my part having not used most public transport systems, so is this common for underground services? How is humidity on these lines?

ido 12y ago
London has very mild weather. In developed countries public transit is usually climate controlled in less mild climates.
iaskwhy 12y ago
Here's an infographic for temperatures: http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2009/08/24/article-1208723-062B1811000005DC-35_468x591.jpg http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2009/08/24/article-1208723-06... The original article: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1208723/Cooking-Central-Line--map-shows-hot-spots-London-Underground-unfit-transporting-cattle.html http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1208723/Cooking-Cent...
msmithstubbs 12y ago
Part of the problem is that much of the London tube is quite deep underground. New trains on the sub-surface lines have air conditioning, but on the deeper lines it's difficult to extract the waste heat. It can be a problem in summer. I've seen a couple of passengers faint from the heat on hot days.
davb 12y ago
I was surprised on my first visit to London to see posters advising passengers to carry a bottle of water and not travel when sick due to the heat and humidity on the underground. We'd get on at one station freshly showered and hydrated then get off at another drenched in sweat and ready to pass out. We used the tube extensively on our visit and it was by far the most uncomfortable (from an environmental perspective) public transport system we've used. I'm not sure what makes the London underground so different from the systems in Glasgow (admittedly very small), Munich, Barcelona or LA. Perhaps it really is so much deeper under ground. That said, the contactless payment system was fantastic. Being able to use my credit card to move around the city without buying a separate ticket was very convenient.

bloat 12y ago

For a peak into the future: go on the Metropolitan / Hammersmith & City line. They already have them there.

theoh 12y ago

Note that the deep-level lines (specifically those with smaller tunnels) are not included in this development. The central line has very small tunnels and will continue to be hot and cramped.

dzhiurgis 12y ago
Can't you cool the line with AC that pumps out heat outside?
- vidarh 12y ago
  You can, but cooling the line means cooling far more than just cooling the train cabins - passengers only accounts for something like 5% of the heat dumped into the underground, the vast majority is things like braking. And so costs of standard AC is an issue. You also need somewhere to dump the heat, and part of the problem is actually that even re-opening existing vents is tricky and/or costly to do when many of these lines for most of their distance are 20m below some of the most expensive real-estate in the world.
  - coob 12y ago
    Trains of ice? Store the heat as water and run them through slowly overnight. Freeze again on the surface during the day. Edit: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/5058362.stm http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/5058362.stm
jonrimmer 12y ago
Wrong, wrong, wrong. This announcement is specifically about the deep-level lines. Read the details: http://www.tfl.gov.uk/campaign/new-tube-for-london http://www.tfl.gov.uk/campaign/new-tube-for-london The new trains, platform-edge doors, and air-cooling are being introduced for the Central, Bakerloo, Waterloo & City, and Piccadilly lines. The tunnels and trains will still be small, there's not much that can be done about that, but they will be cooler, safer and hopefully a little less cramped, due to the extra capacity provided by walk-through carriages.

dzhiurgis 12y ago

Personally I hate the dust in the stations. Also it seems nothing ever gets cleaned there. Stations in Taipei were perfectly clean. Also, the seats in the carriage are designed for goblins. The London population grows not only in quantity, but also in height. It would be nice to have just few seats for taller people.

k-mcgrady 12y ago
>> "It would be nice to have just few seats for taller people." Why bother? How often do you actually get a seat. Personally I think things would be so much easier if they removed seats altogether. People would have more space or they would get more people on. I know this isn't feasible as there are people that require seats but those people are low in number so maybe there could be a dedicated car with seats on each train for those people.
- dzhiurgis 12y ago
  That is actually quite good idea. Personally I do not use tube for daily commute, just once in a while and try not to travel peak times, so getting a seat works for me. Although I mostly try stand after 8 hrs of sitting at work.
jonrimmer 12y ago
The Taipei metro began operating in 1996, whereas the London Underground began operating in 1863. You can't really compare the two. The newest parts of the Underground, such as the Jubilee Line Extension that opened in 1999 are very clean, modern and spacious, but it's impossible to retroactively improve the rest of the network to the same standards while it's being constantly used by millions of people every day.
- dzhiurgis 12y ago
  I wouldn't dare to say they are very clean. They are bit more cleaner than the old ones. The point is - nobody bothers to clean them.

bnastic 12y ago

District line (and Hammersmith/Circle) already have these train. Aircon on full blast. It's everything I imagined it would be.

vidarh 12y ago
District line does not have those trains, as these trains are aimed at the (much smaller) deep level tube tunnels. The subsurface lines have the luxury of much more space for air con, wider tunnels to carry away waste heat, and sections out in the open.
- jamescun 12y ago
  I think he was referring to the S8 stock currently on the Hammersmith & City, Circle and Metropolitan lines (and being trialed on the District line https://twitter.com/jamescun/status/516498515963695105 https://twitter.com/jamescun/status/516498515963695105) which have air-conditioning.