21 ms·

New Tube for London

159 points by jpescada 12y ago

JonnieCache 12y ago
>The trains will be designed and built to be capable of fully automatic operation. When the trains first enter service, they will have an operator on board. We would only consider implementing full automation following extensive engagement with our customers, stakeholders, staff and trade unions. We are committed to having a fully-staffed Tube network, on hand to assist customers and ensure safe operations. Given our existing train fleets, all drivers currently working at London Underground will be able to continue to drive trains for the remainder of their careers. And so, the battle lines are drawn. They seem keen not to annoy Bob Crow and the unions too much, considering there's an election next year. I'm sure he'll react calmly, like he usually does. EDIT: whoops, he's dead apparently.
- colinramsay 12y ago
  I don't think he'll mind too much seeing as he died in March: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-26527325 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-26527325
- vidarh 12y ago
  Notice how careful they are about pointing out that all drivers currently working will be able to keep working out their careers. They're basically counting on attrition to defang the union opposition. Which is far enough - when you see the time horizon for their investments anyway.
SideburnsOfDoom 12y ago
A related BBC news article is here: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-29520761 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-29520761 Including comment from the RMT Union about how they are "deeply concerned" about driverless operation, the "lethal and cash driven nonsense of removing drivers" Well... driverless operation may be "cash-driven", and TFL s often focusing on savings over performance (e.g by removing staff from ticket and information booths) but "lethal" sounds like a slur. Driverless trains work well enough on the DLR in East London, and are probably an inevitable step in 21st century London.
- yangyang 12y ago
  And yet the Docklands Light Railway, also in London, and also under TfL control (though operation is outsourced to Serco, soon to be Keolis/Amey) has run without drivers (but with "train captains") for its entire history, over 25 years. And it does travel underground in places.
  - stuaxo 12y ago
    Did they always have train captains ? I know there have been incidents (like a gang of kids chasing someone onto the tracks to be run over), that might have made them introduce "train captains".
    - colinramsay 12y ago
      According to Wikipedia they've always had them. Doesn't having someone like this on the train mean it's not really "driverless"?
      - yangyang 12y ago
        To a point. They walk up and down the train, do the door opening / closing, check tickets here and there, and occasionally drive the train (though it always seems painfully slow when under manual control). I don't know how they'd do it on the tube. Presumably door closing would still require manual control.
        masklinn 12y ago
        > Presumably door closing would still require manual control. What for? The doors can be on a timer (station-specific if necessary)
        untog 12y ago
        People getting stuck in doors, holding doors open, etc. etc. - though I wonder if it would be more efficient to have a person per train or a person per platform for that.
alimoeeny 12y ago
That was disappointing, so still by 2060 the only progress is better doors, 60% more capacity, air cooling, and driverless? that's it?
- nodata 12y ago
  What would you like to see?
  - JetSpiegel 12y ago
    Personal Transport Tubes?
    - lotsofmangos 12y ago
      I want the strips that Lije Bailey rides.
  - cpplinuxdude 12y ago
    Mobile phone network, for 2g and 3g. Stockholm has them, so surely it can't be that hard. I know this doesn't affect the trains directly, but surely it's something they have to take into consideration, especially during their announcement of their plans until 2060 god damn it. London keeps boasting "best city in the world, best city in the world", yet its citizens are under increasing work pressure, and simultaneously cannot send or receive emails during their daily commute. Sure they have wifi in the stations, but by the time you login (assuming you're paying because see, it's not free) you train has arrived. I remember my holiday in Tel Aviv. I was skyping on the beach, on public free wifi. Then I return to London, and nope, back to being offline, while on my way to a high tech job. And we're supposed to be a cutting edge city? Explain how.
    - geocar 12y ago
      I'd be okay with wifi on the trains (even the pay WIFI they've got), but I don't want phone service on the train because as soon as you hit "above ground" and everyone pulls out their phone and starts making phone calls it becomes annoyingly loud.
k-mcgrady 12y ago
>> Air-cooled carriages Got very excited when I saw this then noticed they won't be out for at least another 6 years. I haven't been in London long but the temperature of the tube is the worst part of the experience for me. The congestion isn't pleasant but if the temperature was bearable the congestion wouldn't be so bad.
- nodata 12y ago
  It says air cooled, not AC. Up until now at least they didn't have a way to get rid of all the heat from that depth. Either they've fixed that now, or it's just air blowing around.
  - k-mcgrady 12y ago
    Yeah, I doubt it's going to make a huge difference but any improvement is welcome. I was reading something recently (may have been on HN) about the difficulties of removing heat from that depth. Maybe they've come up with a solution.
    - zimpenfish 12y ago
      They should talk to these people - http://www.technologyreview.com/news/531526/an-industrial-sized-generator-that-runs-on-waste-heat-using-no-fuel/ http://www.technologyreview.com/news/531526/an-industrial-si... (on the HN front page a few hours ago)
- iamben 12y ago
  I couldn't agree with you more. I wish they'd sorted the heat issue on the new Routemaster Buses. Even with the 'cooling', they were unbearable this summer.
- regularfry 12y ago
  Interestingly, when they were first brought into use they were renowned for being cold. In the intervening period the continual use has heated the surrounding ground enough to make air temperature a problem.
tragomaskhalos 12y ago
Being called a "customer" instead of a pasenger makes me want to scream with rage every time I hear it, especially when I imagine the consultants and marketing gonks employed, and their fees, to push through this utterly pointless bit of linguistic chicanery. You are public transport infrastructure, not a fucking shop.
- petenixey 12y ago
  You pay to go on the tube. You can choose not to. That makes you a customer of the tube. Far better surely that such a system is designed in mind that someone might choose not to use it than that they'll get whatever they're given. I'm not sure why you would be outraged by this.
  - Tarang 12y ago
    Because it's public infrastructure. TFL is a government body. We also pay to to use the road in the form of taxes, it would not be nice for the government to call us a 'customer'. If thats not a good enough example, there are plenty of government departments that require payment for their services and I think the same would apply. Like renewing a passport, I would hate to be called a customer.
    - jiggy2011 12y ago
      The roads are free at the point of use, the tube isn't. There's also the idea that words make a difference to how the staff will "see" the passengers and thus how they will perform their jobs. Are they a nuisance to be herded around or are they the people to whom you owe your job security? It's the same in IT ,it sometimes says things about a person's attitude depending on whether they say "user" or "customer".
      - UweSchmidt 12y ago
        Good points; it just seems like things were better back when it was called "passenger". Unless I'm seeing through rose-tinted glasses organizations used to have a self-concept of providing a public service, of reliability, fairness, consistency.
haphazardeous 12y ago
All I want is air-cooling as I'm sure the number of using the tube by 2020 will increase by 70% and we will still have to cram in...
TamDenholm 12y ago
Didnt the tube just get a bunch of new trains in the last couple years? I seem to remember there being a big deal about it because some of the long serving train drivers retired rather than learned how to work the computerised ones.
- sksksk 12y ago
  Different lines have different trains. The shallow level lines got new trains recently, because the lines were built using cut and cover (like in NYC), they were easily able to add air conditioning. These trains are for some of the deeper level lines that were built by using tunnelling machine to bore deep underground.
- fredley 12y ago
  Yes, on the lines that are not so deep, like the circle, metropolitan etc. Cooling these trains down is significantly easier than the very deep lines, as the heat from the AC can be chucked straight out into the open air. Deep underground there's nowhere for it to go.
- albinoloverats 12y ago
  I believe that was the Circle, District, Hammersmith/City and Met lines.
- RossM 12y ago
  The sub-surface lines (Circle, District, Hammersmith&City) are getting new stock (same sort of features - walk-through carriages, little bit taller). In the past few years automation was introduced on Victoria, Northern, Jubilee and I think Piccadilly lines that basically reduces the driver's role to opening and closing doors and emergency stops. This allows trains to run at higher speeds with less delay between seeing a signal and starting the engine.
petenixey 12y ago
It's kind of crazy to think that the platform-side doors will increase service capacity by removing the ability for people to commit suicide in front of trains. The frequency with which there is "a passenger under a train" must have a tangible effect on tube capacity.
- frobozz 12y ago
  Platform overcrowding is also an issue, and passengers are often held back in the ticket hall or outside, because of how dangerous it would be to put more people on an open platform. With platform-side doors, you don't need to stand behind the yellow line. It isn't just one-unders, but the fact that the train can't safely move off when there are passengers right up against the train.
  - davedx 12y ago
    I remember being blown away by the platform side doors for the shinkansen bullet train in Japan: the incredible precision with which the train doors align with the platform doors.
    - lmm 12y ago
      Where was that? Most shinkansen platforms I've been on were in the open air. (Also, London has had platform edge doors for a while already - only on half of one line, but still)
      - davedx 12y ago
        Not sure... one of the Tokyo stations I think. It was still an open air platform, but had doors on the edge of the platform around man-height that aligned with the train doors.
  - iaskwhy 12y ago
    Canary Wharf station has platform-side doors but it still closes the entry at ticket hall level every now and then. One advantage for me is the line formed in front of the platform doors which allows me to wait in front of it for the next train and find a free seat every day.
Dwolb 12y ago
'Future proofing' is not a good sign. Typically it means 'architectural and cost inefficiencies because we don't want to institutionalize knowledge'
- corin_ 12y ago
  When creating trains for a service that is growing in usage on a consistent basis you can either future proof it (i.e. make it bigger/better than it needs to be right now so that it can survive X years of growth) or you can not future proof it (i.e. make it exactly what's needed right now and a year later you're wishing you could upgrade it). It's the same reason when you buy a computer you think about the next year or two of use rather than your previous year or two of use.
swombat 12y ago
Why is this top of HN? These trains, even modernised, are years behind other underground systems like Hong Kong... And this won't even be out for years. It's nice news for London commuters, but hardly "Hacker News". Flagged.
- jpatokal 12y ago
  Because they're modernizing a system that started operating 151 years ago? The Hong Kong MTR, by contrast, dates to the misty antiquity of 1979.
  - tonyhb 12y ago
    And the Hong Kong MTR was designed by the same architect that worked on some of London's line extensions. They had a huge amount of experience and learnt lessons to pull from over the hundred years London's underground had been running.
    - NickPollard 12y ago
      Also, I don't know what Hong Kong is like, but London has been a major city for about 2000 years, and under the surface contains not only rail lines, but sewers, tunnels, underground rivers, burial pits, bunkers, luxury belgravia basements, and the detritus of two millennia of occupation. Trying to dig anything under London now is a huge effort because of all this. This is very much a 'move slow and try not to break anything' environment.
      - gsnedders 12y ago
        Case in point: the Crossrail tunnel through Tottenham Court Road has about 85cm clearance both above and below it, and had to be constructed with the Underground tunnels around it still in active service. Building new lines through relatively soft clay is really hard when you have hundreds of notable historical buildings that you cannot afford to have any subsidence (like, millimetres is enough to cause really damage), and then when you don't really even though where half the other underground pipes are exactly (many of them are hundreds of years old, and some we simply don't know exist)… It's a real challenge.
quarterto 12y ago
Wow, it's about time the Bakerloo line got some new rolling stock. It's still using stock from 1972. Even the Picadilly line's '73 stock is miles better.
- andy_ppp 12y ago
  I overheard a TFL employee saying that the Bakerloo line is filled with asbestos which they cover in glue every year, no way they can ever remove it. Does anyone know if this is true?
  - DanBC 12y ago
    A quick Google search suggest ghat there is asbestos in various places in the London Underground. Covering it in gloop is probably better than closing the line and removing the asbestos. http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/asbestos-london-underground-tube-rmt-295229 http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/asbestos-london-underground-tube-rm...
- simpleigh 12y ago
  Personally I much prefer the Bakerloo. The seats are much more comfortable than anything more recent. The Bakerloo is pretty low down the list of an upgrade, apparently. Counter-intuitively this is because the trains need substantial refurbishment within the next few years - unfortunately this will be necessary before new stock will become available, so it makes sense to refurbish and then run for longer.
  - quarterto 12y ago
    They're only more comfortable because the springs have all given up.
Sarkie 12y ago
What about the crappy Northern Line?
- sabarasaba 12y ago
  At least they could put more trains to bank, why so many for charing cross.. they are always empty !
  - SideburnsOfDoom 12y ago
    My guess is that there are equal numbers of trains via Charing Cross and via Bank, but the morning trains in via Bank are much more crowded, as more people work there. More capacity would help, either way.
  - RossM 12y ago
    Coming from South London, it seems like every train is on the Bank branch (I have to change at Kennington 9 times out of 10).
    - mattdoughty 12y ago
      Northern line trains on the Charing Cross branch only go south of Kennington at peak times. This is shown on the map of the Northern line but not on normal Tube maps.
imaginenore 12y ago
Why do all subways have to have the ugliest seat cushions? It's like they order them from the same shitty cushion factory.
- NickPollard 12y ago
  I don't have evidence but I always assumed they do it to mask wear and dirt - the odd geometrical patterns make it less obvious how old and dirty they are, compared to a single clean colour.
  - alexbilbie 12y ago
    It's called moquette and "is renown for its hard wearing, durable and fire resistant qualities" http://www.ltmuseumshop.co.uk/for-home/furniture/about-moquette.html http://www.ltmuseumshop.co.uk/for-home/furniture/about-moque...
- yincrash 12y ago
  NYC has only hard plastic chairs.
- coob 12y ago
  They're great! Someone was selling t-shirts with the patterns a while back but TfL hold copyrights on them and the seller was C&Ded. Here's my favourite, from the best tube line in London: https://dribbble.com/shots/1642243-Tubepapers-Victoria?list=users&offset=0 https://dribbble.com/shots/1642243-Tubepapers-Victoria?list=...
- cylinder 12y ago
  I don't even know why they have seat cushions to begin with. It just seems like they're breeding grounds for bacteria and would be difficult to properly clean.
bane 12y ago
I wonder what the cost would look like to widen the tunnels on old subway systems like the Tube to make for wider trains. The first thing that hit me about the Tube when I used it is how narrow the trains are (especially the older lines). It's not a surprised when probably most of it was dug out by hand, but running a modern tunnel boring machine down the line and laying new track and using the kind of ultra wide trains used in Asia would move far more people.
- zimpenfish 12y ago
  I'm guessing "a lot". From http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/4934f824-ead3-11e1-984b-00144feab49a.html#ixzz3FeLfMlGK http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/4934f824-ead3-11e1-984b-00144feab4... > A decade later, the Jubilee line cost £36m per mile to build and its extension in the 1990s 10 times as much. The tunnels for Crossrail, the newest underground railway connection in London, are budgeted at almost £1bn per mile.
- alexbilbie 12y ago
  Whatever the cost it wouldn't be worth it. First some lines run within metres of one another so you couldn't expand because there just isn't space. A back of the napkin plan if you were to go ahead would look like this: 1) Shut down the line completely 2) Remove the tracks 3) Design, build and then get underground some new boring machines which need to be capable of removing the metal lining, digging through earth and concrete then relaying the lining. 4) Rebuild platforms which would inevitably be damaged 5) Relay tracks 6) Design, build and get to London new wider trains Realistically you're looking at 3-5 years (at least) per line to widen them. I don't know if you live in London and are therefore aware how much we Londoners rely on the tube - even if they only widened one line, having it out action for that long would have devastating consequences for communities and businesses and every day Londoners' lives.
  - bane 12y ago
    No, I've only spent a few weeks there. But I did absolutely rely on the tube for most of my transport until I figured out the bus system. Of course it would be horribly disruptive, but it might somebody be a necessity.
endeavour 12y ago
"Air-cooling" sounds like a gimmick rather than an actual solution (i.e. proper air conditioning). You see this on adverts for new-build flats in London too. "Comfort cooling" often just means a fan blowing hot air around.
- mynameisvlad 12y ago
  It's impossible to have actual AC on the trains, there's simply no space, and there's no real way to make space. Furthermore, you have the issue of venting the hot air 20m underground.
lucio 12y ago
The music and video, subconscient reference to Spirited Away?
jmngomes 12y ago
I'm curious on how responsibility works in this case, e.g. a driver can be held accountable for causing an accident, but who is accountable for bugs causing accidents? The software house? I can only imagine the price of civil responsibility insurance for this...
- troymc 12y ago
  The software industry has a tradition of inserting a "Disclaimer of Warranty" and a "Limitation of Liability" into all licenses. Do those hold up in court? I don't know. It is bizarre. Imagine if car companies did that. Example 1: The GNU GPL, sections 15-17, http://www.gnu.org/copyleft/gpl.html http://www.gnu.org/copyleft/gpl.html Example 2: Microsoft Services Agreement, sections 11 & 12: http://windows.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/microsoft-services-agreement http://windows.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/microsoft-service...
binarytrees 12y ago
Meanwhile California can't get high speed rail, or connect LA Metro from 7th street to the terminal.
crb 12y ago
Shame they didn't go for the Siemens design: http://w3.siemens.com/topics/global/en/goingunderground/pages/home.aspx http://w3.siemens.com/topics/global/en/goingunderground/page... To me, it seemed like it would stand the test of time a lot better.
deleted 12y ago
[deleted]

159 points by jpescada 12y ago

>The trains will be designed and built to be capable of fully automatic operation. When the trains first enter service, they will have an operator on board. We would only consider implementing full automation following extensive engagement with our customers, stakeholders, staff and trade unions. We are committed to having a fully-staffed Tube network, on hand to assist customers and ensure safe operations. Given our existing train fleets, all drivers currently working at London Underground will be able to continue to drive trains for the remainder of their careers. And so, the battle lines are drawn. They seem keen not to annoy Bob Crow and the unions too much, considering there's an election next year. I'm sure he'll react calmly, like he usually does. EDIT: whoops, he's dead apparently.

colinramsay 12y ago
I don't think he'll mind too much seeing as he died in March: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-26527325 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-26527325
vidarh 12y ago
Notice how careful they are about pointing out that all drivers currently working will be able to keep working out their careers. They're basically counting on attrition to defang the union opposition. Which is far enough - when you see the time horizon for their investments anyway.

SideburnsOfDoom 12y ago

A related BBC news article is here: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-29520761 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-29520761 Including comment from the RMT Union about how they are "deeply concerned" about driverless operation, the "lethal and cash driven nonsense of removing drivers" Well... driverless operation may be "cash-driven", and TFL s often focusing on savings over performance (e.g by removing staff from ticket and information booths) but "lethal" sounds like a slur. Driverless trains work well enough on the DLR in East London, and are probably an inevitable step in 21st century London.

yangyang 12y ago
And yet the Docklands Light Railway, also in London, and also under TfL control (though operation is outsourced to Serco, soon to be Keolis/Amey) has run without drivers (but with "train captains") for its entire history, over 25 years. And it does travel underground in places.
- stuaxo 12y ago
  Did they always have train captains ? I know there have been incidents (like a gang of kids chasing someone onto the tracks to be run over), that might have made them introduce "train captains".
  - colinramsay 12y ago
    According to Wikipedia they've always had them. Doesn't having someone like this on the train mean it's not really "driverless"?
    - yangyang 12y ago
      To a point. They walk up and down the train, do the door opening / closing, check tickets here and there, and occasionally drive the train (though it always seems painfully slow when under manual control). I don't know how they'd do it on the tube. Presumably door closing would still require manual control.
      - masklinn 12y ago
        > Presumably door closing would still require manual control. What for? The doors can be on a timer (station-specific if necessary)
        untog 12y ago
        People getting stuck in doors, holding doors open, etc. etc. - though I wonder if it would be more efficient to have a person per train or a person per platform for that.

alimoeeny 12y ago

That was disappointing, so still by 2060 the only progress is better doors, 60% more capacity, air cooling, and driverless? that's it?

nodata 12y ago
What would you like to see?
- JetSpiegel 12y ago
  Personal Transport Tubes?
  - lotsofmangos 12y ago
    I want the strips that Lije Bailey rides.
- cpplinuxdude 12y ago
  Mobile phone network, for 2g and 3g. Stockholm has them, so surely it can't be that hard. I know this doesn't affect the trains directly, but surely it's something they have to take into consideration, especially during their announcement of their plans until 2060 god damn it. London keeps boasting "best city in the world, best city in the world", yet its citizens are under increasing work pressure, and simultaneously cannot send or receive emails during their daily commute. Sure they have wifi in the stations, but by the time you login (assuming you're paying because see, it's not free) you train has arrived. I remember my holiday in Tel Aviv. I was skyping on the beach, on public free wifi. Then I return to London, and nope, back to being offline, while on my way to a high tech job. And we're supposed to be a cutting edge city? Explain how.
  - geocar 12y ago
    I'd be okay with wifi on the trains (even the pay WIFI they've got), but I don't want phone service on the train because as soon as you hit "above ground" and everyone pulls out their phone and starts making phone calls it becomes annoyingly loud.

k-mcgrady 12y ago

>> Air-cooled carriages Got very excited when I saw this then noticed they won't be out for at least another 6 years. I haven't been in London long but the temperature of the tube is the worst part of the experience for me. The congestion isn't pleasant but if the temperature was bearable the congestion wouldn't be so bad.

nodata 12y ago
It says air cooled, not AC. Up until now at least they didn't have a way to get rid of all the heat from that depth. Either they've fixed that now, or it's just air blowing around.
- k-mcgrady 12y ago
  Yeah, I doubt it's going to make a huge difference but any improvement is welcome. I was reading something recently (may have been on HN) about the difficulties of removing heat from that depth. Maybe they've come up with a solution.
  - zimpenfish 12y ago
    They should talk to these people - http://www.technologyreview.com/news/531526/an-industrial-sized-generator-that-runs-on-waste-heat-using-no-fuel/ http://www.technologyreview.com/news/531526/an-industrial-si... (on the HN front page a few hours ago)
iamben 12y ago
I couldn't agree with you more. I wish they'd sorted the heat issue on the new Routemaster Buses. Even with the 'cooling', they were unbearable this summer.
regularfry 12y ago
Interestingly, when they were first brought into use they were renowned for being cold. In the intervening period the continual use has heated the surrounding ground enough to make air temperature a problem.

tragomaskhalos 12y ago

Being called a "customer" instead of a pasenger makes me want to scream with rage every time I hear it, especially when I imagine the consultants and marketing gonks employed, and their fees, to push through this utterly pointless bit of linguistic chicanery. You are public transport infrastructure, not a fucking shop.

petenixey 12y ago
You pay to go on the tube. You can choose not to. That makes you a customer of the tube. Far better surely that such a system is designed in mind that someone might choose not to use it than that they'll get whatever they're given. I'm not sure why you would be outraged by this.
- Tarang 12y ago
  Because it's public infrastructure. TFL is a government body. We also pay to to use the road in the form of taxes, it would not be nice for the government to call us a 'customer'. If thats not a good enough example, there are plenty of government departments that require payment for their services and I think the same would apply. Like renewing a passport, I would hate to be called a customer.
  - jiggy2011 12y ago
    The roads are free at the point of use, the tube isn't. There's also the idea that words make a difference to how the staff will "see" the passengers and thus how they will perform their jobs. Are they a nuisance to be herded around or are they the people to whom you owe your job security? It's the same in IT ,it sometimes says things about a person's attitude depending on whether they say "user" or "customer".
    - UweSchmidt 12y ago
      Good points; it just seems like things were better back when it was called "passenger". Unless I'm seeing through rose-tinted glasses organizations used to have a self-concept of providing a public service, of reliability, fairness, consistency.

haphazardeous 12y ago

All I want is air-cooling as I'm sure the number of using the tube by 2020 will increase by 70% and we will still have to cram in...

TamDenholm 12y ago

Didnt the tube just get a bunch of new trains in the last couple years? I seem to remember there being a big deal about it because some of the long serving train drivers retired rather than learned how to work the computerised ones.

sksksk 12y ago
Different lines have different trains. The shallow level lines got new trains recently, because the lines were built using cut and cover (like in NYC), they were easily able to add air conditioning. These trains are for some of the deeper level lines that were built by using tunnelling machine to bore deep underground.
fredley 12y ago
Yes, on the lines that are not so deep, like the circle, metropolitan etc. Cooling these trains down is significantly easier than the very deep lines, as the heat from the AC can be chucked straight out into the open air. Deep underground there's nowhere for it to go.
albinoloverats 12y ago
I believe that was the Circle, District, Hammersmith/City and Met lines.
RossM 12y ago
The sub-surface lines (Circle, District, Hammersmith&City) are getting new stock (same sort of features - walk-through carriages, little bit taller). In the past few years automation was introduced on Victoria, Northern, Jubilee and I think Piccadilly lines that basically reduces the driver's role to opening and closing doors and emergency stops. This allows trains to run at higher speeds with less delay between seeing a signal and starting the engine.

petenixey 12y ago

It's kind of crazy to think that the platform-side doors will increase service capacity by removing the ability for people to commit suicide in front of trains. The frequency with which there is "a passenger under a train" must have a tangible effect on tube capacity.

frobozz 12y ago
Platform overcrowding is also an issue, and passengers are often held back in the ticket hall or outside, because of how dangerous it would be to put more people on an open platform. With platform-side doors, you don't need to stand behind the yellow line. It isn't just one-unders, but the fact that the train can't safely move off when there are passengers right up against the train.
- davedx 12y ago
  I remember being blown away by the platform side doors for the shinkansen bullet train in Japan: the incredible precision with which the train doors align with the platform doors.
  - lmm 12y ago
    Where was that? Most shinkansen platforms I've been on were in the open air. (Also, London has had platform edge doors for a while already - only on half of one line, but still)
    - davedx 12y ago
      Not sure... one of the Tokyo stations I think. It was still an open air platform, but had doors on the edge of the platform around man-height that aligned with the train doors.
- iaskwhy 12y ago
  Canary Wharf station has platform-side doors but it still closes the entry at ticket hall level every now and then. One advantage for me is the line formed in front of the platform doors which allows me to wait in front of it for the next train and find a free seat every day.

Dwolb 12y ago

'Future proofing' is not a good sign. Typically it means 'architectural and cost inefficiencies because we don't want to institutionalize knowledge'

corin_ 12y ago
When creating trains for a service that is growing in usage on a consistent basis you can either future proof it (i.e. make it bigger/better than it needs to be right now so that it can survive X years of growth) or you can not future proof it (i.e. make it exactly what's needed right now and a year later you're wishing you could upgrade it). It's the same reason when you buy a computer you think about the next year or two of use rather than your previous year or two of use.

swombat 12y ago

Why is this top of HN? These trains, even modernised, are years behind other underground systems like Hong Kong... And this won't even be out for years. It's nice news for London commuters, but hardly "Hacker News". Flagged.

jpatokal 12y ago
Because they're modernizing a system that started operating 151 years ago? The Hong Kong MTR, by contrast, dates to the misty antiquity of 1979.
- tonyhb 12y ago
  And the Hong Kong MTR was designed by the same architect that worked on some of London's line extensions. They had a huge amount of experience and learnt lessons to pull from over the hundred years London's underground had been running.
  - NickPollard 12y ago
    Also, I don't know what Hong Kong is like, but London has been a major city for about 2000 years, and under the surface contains not only rail lines, but sewers, tunnels, underground rivers, burial pits, bunkers, luxury belgravia basements, and the detritus of two millennia of occupation. Trying to dig anything under London now is a huge effort because of all this. This is very much a 'move slow and try not to break anything' environment.
    - gsnedders 12y ago
      Case in point: the Crossrail tunnel through Tottenham Court Road has about 85cm clearance both above and below it, and had to be constructed with the Underground tunnels around it still in active service. Building new lines through relatively soft clay is really hard when you have hundreds of notable historical buildings that you cannot afford to have any subsidence (like, millimetres is enough to cause really damage), and then when you don't really even though where half the other underground pipes are exactly (many of them are hundreds of years old, and some we simply don't know exist)… It's a real challenge.

quarterto 12y ago

Wow, it's about time the Bakerloo line got some new rolling stock. It's still using stock from 1972. Even the Picadilly line's '73 stock is miles better.

andy_ppp 12y ago
I overheard a TFL employee saying that the Bakerloo line is filled with asbestos which they cover in glue every year, no way they can ever remove it. Does anyone know if this is true?
- DanBC 12y ago
  A quick Google search suggest ghat there is asbestos in various places in the London Underground. Covering it in gloop is probably better than closing the line and removing the asbestos. http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/asbestos-london-underground-tube-rmt-295229 http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/asbestos-london-underground-tube-rm...
simpleigh 12y ago
Personally I much prefer the Bakerloo. The seats are much more comfortable than anything more recent. The Bakerloo is pretty low down the list of an upgrade, apparently. Counter-intuitively this is because the trains need substantial refurbishment within the next few years - unfortunately this will be necessary before new stock will become available, so it makes sense to refurbish and then run for longer.
- quarterto 12y ago
  They're only more comfortable because the springs have all given up.

Sarkie 12y ago

What about the crappy Northern Line?

sabarasaba 12y ago
At least they could put more trains to bank, why so many for charing cross.. they are always empty !
- SideburnsOfDoom 12y ago
  My guess is that there are equal numbers of trains via Charing Cross and via Bank, but the morning trains in via Bank are much more crowded, as more people work there. More capacity would help, either way.
- RossM 12y ago
  Coming from South London, it seems like every train is on the Bank branch (I have to change at Kennington 9 times out of 10).
  - mattdoughty 12y ago
    Northern line trains on the Charing Cross branch only go south of Kennington at peak times. This is shown on the map of the Northern line but not on normal Tube maps.

imaginenore 12y ago

Why do all subways have to have the ugliest seat cushions? It's like they order them from the same shitty cushion factory.

NickPollard 12y ago
I don't have evidence but I always assumed they do it to mask wear and dirt - the odd geometrical patterns make it less obvious how old and dirty they are, compared to a single clean colour.
- alexbilbie 12y ago
  It's called moquette and "is renown for its hard wearing, durable and fire resistant qualities" http://www.ltmuseumshop.co.uk/for-home/furniture/about-moquette.html http://www.ltmuseumshop.co.uk/for-home/furniture/about-moque...
yincrash 12y ago
NYC has only hard plastic chairs.
coob 12y ago
They're great! Someone was selling t-shirts with the patterns a while back but TfL hold copyrights on them and the seller was C&Ded. Here's my favourite, from the best tube line in London: https://dribbble.com/shots/1642243-Tubepapers-Victoria?list=users&offset=0 https://dribbble.com/shots/1642243-Tubepapers-Victoria?list=...
cylinder 12y ago
I don't even know why they have seat cushions to begin with. It just seems like they're breeding grounds for bacteria and would be difficult to properly clean.

bane 12y ago

I wonder what the cost would look like to widen the tunnels on old subway systems like the Tube to make for wider trains. The first thing that hit me about the Tube when I used it is how narrow the trains are (especially the older lines). It's not a surprised when probably most of it was dug out by hand, but running a modern tunnel boring machine down the line and laying new track and using the kind of ultra wide trains used in Asia would move far more people.

zimpenfish 12y ago
I'm guessing "a lot". From http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/4934f824-ead3-11e1-984b-00144feab49a.html#ixzz3FeLfMlGK http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/4934f824-ead3-11e1-984b-00144feab4... > A decade later, the Jubilee line cost £36m per mile to build and its extension in the 1990s 10 times as much. The tunnels for Crossrail, the newest underground railway connection in London, are budgeted at almost £1bn per mile.
alexbilbie 12y ago
Whatever the cost it wouldn't be worth it. First some lines run within metres of one another so you couldn't expand because there just isn't space. A back of the napkin plan if you were to go ahead would look like this: 1) Shut down the line completely 2) Remove the tracks 3) Design, build and then get underground some new boring machines which need to be capable of removing the metal lining, digging through earth and concrete then relaying the lining. 4) Rebuild platforms which would inevitably be damaged 5) Relay tracks 6) Design, build and get to London new wider trains Realistically you're looking at 3-5 years (at least) per line to widen them. I don't know if you live in London and are therefore aware how much we Londoners rely on the tube - even if they only widened one line, having it out action for that long would have devastating consequences for communities and businesses and every day Londoners' lives.
- bane 12y ago
  No, I've only spent a few weeks there. But I did absolutely rely on the tube for most of my transport until I figured out the bus system. Of course it would be horribly disruptive, but it might somebody be a necessity.

endeavour 12y ago

"Air-cooling" sounds like a gimmick rather than an actual solution (i.e. proper air conditioning). You see this on adverts for new-build flats in London too. "Comfort cooling" often just means a fan blowing hot air around.

mynameisvlad 12y ago
It's impossible to have actual AC on the trains, there's simply no space, and there's no real way to make space. Furthermore, you have the issue of venting the hot air 20m underground.

lucio 12y ago

The music and video, subconscient reference to Spirited Away?

jmngomes 12y ago

I'm curious on how responsibility works in this case, e.g. a driver can be held accountable for causing an accident, but who is accountable for bugs causing accidents? The software house? I can only imagine the price of civil responsibility insurance for this...

troymc 12y ago
The software industry has a tradition of inserting a "Disclaimer of Warranty" and a "Limitation of Liability" into all licenses. Do those hold up in court? I don't know. It is bizarre. Imagine if car companies did that. Example 1: The GNU GPL, sections 15-17, http://www.gnu.org/copyleft/gpl.html http://www.gnu.org/copyleft/gpl.html Example 2: Microsoft Services Agreement, sections 11 & 12: http://windows.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/microsoft-services-agreement http://windows.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/microsoft-service...

binarytrees 12y ago

Meanwhile California can't get high speed rail, or connect LA Metro from 7th street to the terminal.

crb 12y ago

Shame they didn't go for the Siemens design: http://w3.siemens.com/topics/global/en/goingunderground/pages/home.aspx http://w3.siemens.com/topics/global/en/goingunderground/page... To me, it seemed like it would stand the test of time a lot better.

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