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Cites recent layoffs but has no real stats on the decline of outsourcing, near shoring, etc. Weak. Part of the problem with India is lack of standards. There a

by bruceb 12y ago

Cites recent layoffs but has no real stats on the decline of outsourcing, near shoring, etc. Weak. Part of the problem with India is lack of standards. There are people who are good at programming in both the US and India and people who are bad at it. The problem is in the US most of the bad ones don't end up getting a CS degree where in India they do. This means there are a lot of people in India who have a little bit of skill and can get a job but not do it that great. Their US counterpart might have switched to business or something else as they are less expected to get a tech (viewed a good a job) related job by their family. Obviously there are more complexities but bottom line its not just the cost it is the quality of work.

Bahamut 12y ago
"The problem is in the US most of the bad ones don't end up getting a CS degree where in India they do." There are plenty in the US that have a CS degree and aren't good at programming. It isn't a magic ticket to knowledge.
tluyben2 12y ago
To add to this; a lot of companies in India just gather as many people as they can with a CS degree in a building (often 1000s) and hire them out in 'teams' to western companies. This is a valid (currently) business plan which makes them a lot of money. It also gives outsourcing a really bad name, but that does not seem to deter companies from hiring these kind of, let's call them what they are, sweatshops. The idea is definitely appealing; you hire educated women and men, usually they are monitored (often by camera's!) to make sure they site and work 8 hours / day, 5-6 days / week and they have the skills you need. Not happy? You get another person right away! You can expand or shrink your team(s) at any time. That they are treated like robots sitting in long rows of far too little space and that they are not allowed to get up besides for lunch and tea at set times is not interesting to most; that this kind of environment (not even looking at if they are good at their jobs or not; some are, some are not like you say) is destroying any chance of getting quality anyway is lost on most people who hire. This market is growing as it does sound incredibly attractive on paper. The prices are also still a lot (for programmers you pay around 20-40% of what you would pay in the west, it used to be 5-10%) lower than the same role (on paper) in 'the west'. I hear some companies actually get work done this way and are very happy with it, growing continuously without worrying about who does the tech; they have 100s of companies to pick from and 100-1000s of employees in these companies. How they manage that, I have no clue, but I do hear a lot of my Indian friends who try to make something 'west' quality in India complain about these popping up a lot and a lot young guys dream of making these, in essence no-risk at the moment, 'brain work' farms.
- QuantumChaos 12y ago
  I don't really see the problem here. Indians are willing to work under these conditions, which honestly don't sound worse than the US. It sounds like even though they might shrink/grow teams at will, because the building has many teams, the risk for the individual is low. And you said that companies are happy with the work these teams do. So what is the problem?
  - tluyben2 12y ago
    Indians are willing to work under these conditions => willing or don't (think they) have much choice? And i'm sure rows of long, room wide desks without any separation between 1m workspaces with touching chairs and cameras pointing at you to keep you in your chair is not normal/allowed in the US? It certainly is not over here. I see quite a lot wrong with it. It keeps the prices low, sure. I didn't say the companies hiring them are happy though; I said they keep hiring them because it seems like a good idea and you have this team doing work, you can show the hours they spent, you can show what they did etc to your boss. It's kind of 'secure' compared to, let's say, Elance, where a really good developer(team) suddenly disappears to turn up a few months later with 'sorry, had some personal/company/financial/cosmic radiation issues' leaving you to explain why you hired this loose cannon. Quality wise I have not seen anything coming from these shops, however that might be OK for departmental (read CRUD; the type MS Access was made for) LoB applications, mobile apps and internal sites. Edit: stand corrected, I did say happy.
    - QuantumChaos 12y ago
      Yes they do have a choice. Their choices are more limited because they live in a poorer country. On the American companies, didn't you said I hear some companies actually get work done this way and are very happy with it, growing continuously without worrying about who does the tech; Not saying you're 100% wrong on outsource being a safe option for managers, but you really did say that American companies were happy with outsourcing. If you apply basic microeconomics to this situation, it is actually very simple. The company makes Indian workers better off, American workers worse off, and American companies better off.
bad_user 12y ago
> The problem is in the US most of the bad ones don't end up getting a CS degree where in India they do. The problem is of course that the world is placing too much emphasis on degrees and this doesn't scale, because education costs are going through the roof and because degrees are so desirable, the system is being gamed. I see this happening in my own country and everywhere really. Lets take the US as an example - how many software developers skipped college? How many founders skipped college? Quite many, compared with the rest of the world. This is one of those cases in which you're not seeing the forest from the trees. Do you think those indian companies you're talking about aren't aware that they are routinely hiring mediocre people? Of course they do and they like the ability of doing so, because consulting scales only horizontally - the more people you have, the more profit the company makes. And if universities would get tougher, they would just hire people without degrees and still access the same projects they are accessing today.

by bruceb 12y ago

Bahamut 12y ago

"The problem is in the US most of the bad ones don't end up getting a CS degree where in India they do." There are plenty in the US that have a CS degree and aren't good at programming. It isn't a magic ticket to knowledge.

tluyben2 12y ago

To add to this; a lot of companies in India just gather as many people as they can with a CS degree in a building (often 1000s) and hire them out in 'teams' to western companies. This is a valid (currently) business plan which makes them a lot of money. It also gives outsourcing a really bad name, but that does not seem to deter companies from hiring these kind of, let's call them what they are, sweatshops. The idea is definitely appealing; you hire educated women and men, usually they are monitored (often by camera's!) to make sure they site and work 8 hours / day, 5-6 days / week and they have the skills you need. Not happy? You get another person right away! You can expand or shrink your team(s) at any time. That they are treated like robots sitting in long rows of far too little space and that they are not allowed to get up besides for lunch and tea at set times is not interesting to most; that this kind of environment (not even looking at if they are good at their jobs or not; some are, some are not like you say) is destroying any chance of getting quality anyway is lost on most people who hire. This market is growing as it does sound incredibly attractive on paper. The prices are also still a lot (for programmers you pay around 20-40% of what you would pay in the west, it used to be 5-10%) lower than the same role (on paper) in 'the west'. I hear some companies actually get work done this way and are very happy with it, growing continuously without worrying about who does the tech; they have 100s of companies to pick from and 100-1000s of employees in these companies. How they manage that, I have no clue, but I do hear a lot of my Indian friends who try to make something 'west' quality in India complain about these popping up a lot and a lot young guys dream of making these, in essence no-risk at the moment, 'brain work' farms.

QuantumChaos 12y ago
I don't really see the problem here. Indians are willing to work under these conditions, which honestly don't sound worse than the US. It sounds like even though they might shrink/grow teams at will, because the building has many teams, the risk for the individual is low. And you said that companies are happy with the work these teams do. So what is the problem?
- tluyben2 12y ago
  Indians are willing to work under these conditions => willing or don't (think they) have much choice? And i'm sure rows of long, room wide desks without any separation between 1m workspaces with touching chairs and cameras pointing at you to keep you in your chair is not normal/allowed in the US? It certainly is not over here. I see quite a lot wrong with it. It keeps the prices low, sure. I didn't say the companies hiring them are happy though; I said they keep hiring them because it seems like a good idea and you have this team doing work, you can show the hours they spent, you can show what they did etc to your boss. It's kind of 'secure' compared to, let's say, Elance, where a really good developer(team) suddenly disappears to turn up a few months later with 'sorry, had some personal/company/financial/cosmic radiation issues' leaving you to explain why you hired this loose cannon. Quality wise I have not seen anything coming from these shops, however that might be OK for departmental (read CRUD; the type MS Access was made for) LoB applications, mobile apps and internal sites. Edit: stand corrected, I did say happy.
  - QuantumChaos 12y ago
    Yes they do have a choice. Their choices are more limited because they live in a poorer country. On the American companies, didn't you said I hear some companies actually get work done this way and are very happy with it, growing continuously without worrying about who does the tech; Not saying you're 100% wrong on outsource being a safe option for managers, but you really did say that American companies were happy with outsourcing. If you apply basic microeconomics to this situation, it is actually very simple. The company makes Indian workers better off, American workers worse off, and American companies better off.

bad_user 12y ago

> The problem is in the US most of the bad ones don't end up getting a CS degree where in India they do. The problem is of course that the world is placing too much emphasis on degrees and this doesn't scale, because education costs are going through the roof and because degrees are so desirable, the system is being gamed. I see this happening in my own country and everywhere really. Lets take the US as an example - how many software developers skipped college? How many founders skipped college? Quite many, compared with the rest of the world. This is one of those cases in which you're not seeing the forest from the trees. Do you think those indian companies you're talking about aren't aware that they are routinely hiring mediocre people? Of course they do and they like the ability of doing so, because consulting scales only horizontally - the more people you have, the more profit the company makes. And if universities would get tougher, they would just hire people without degrees and still access the same projects they are accessing today.