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> (IAAL, by the way. Sorry you hate me.) I meant in general. When you see prosecutors, defense attorneys, and judges deciding the plea bargain deals at strip c

> (IAAL, by the way. Sorry you hate me.) I meant in general. When you see prosecutors, defense attorneys, and judges deciding the plea bargain deals at strip clubs (with the pretense that they would merely "go through the motions" under public scrutiny) ahead of time, you tend to not respect the profession. > I'm not sure what more there is to say, though, if you're not willing to actually defend your view. My view is simple: I want that law to cease to exist through any legal means necessary because it gives prosecutors far too much potential for abuse. If vagueness isn't sufficient or is too disputable, let's find another attack vector.

pdabbadabba 12y ago
I'm happy to hear we're on the same side, then. This time I agree with what you say about CFAA. The punishments are too high which, as you say, gives prosecutors an unfair amount of leverage. I'm simply trying to inject a dose of realism into the YC conversation on this issue: unfortunately, I don't think any judge is going to strike down, or meaningfully limit CFAA any time soon. The legal arguments just are not there. If we want it fixed, we need to come up with a strategy to get Congress to fix it. That won't be easy, but I think it may be the only way. (Of course, CFAA is only one of many criminal laws that need to be reformed in precisely the same way. Drug laws are, of course, another great example.) I do want to try to dispel just a bit of your cynicism about the criminal justice system, though. Unfortunately, I can't say a lot about the state systems, but I can tell you from extensive first hand experience behind the scenes in the federal court system that the plea bargaining process (and all the rest of it) works pretty much as advertised. While prosecutors may be overzealous, there is no shady back room business going on behind judges and prosecutors in strip clubs or anywhere else. (I'm not saying, of course, that it NEVER happens, but that, if it does, it would be a rarity and all the other judges would be aghast. The actual culture among federal judges would never condone what you've described.) This doesn't mean that defendants always get a fair chance. They typically have few resources, little knowledge of the system, and are threatened with huge penalties (though at least in federal court the appointed representation actually tends to be decent). But at least the courts themselves are not rigged against them. (I suspect much the same can be said for many state courts, but not, unfortunately, all.)
- sarciszewski 12y ago
  > I'm happy to hear we're on the same side, then. This time I agree with what you say about CFAA. The punishments are too high which, as you say, gives prosecutors an unfair amount of leverage. I'm simply trying to inject a dose of realism into the YC conversation on this issue: unfortunately, I don't think any judge is going to strike down, or meaningfully limit CFAA any time soon. The legal arguments just are not there. Damn. Oh well. What can we do? :) > If we want it fixed, we need to come up with a strategy to get Congress to fix it. That won't be easy, but I think it may be the only way. (Of course, CFAA is only one of many criminal laws that need to be reformed in precisely the same way. Drug laws are, of course, another great example.) Agreed. > I do want to try to dispel just a bit of your cynicism about the criminal justice system, though. Unfortunately, I can't say a lot about the state systems, but I can tell you from extensive first hand experience behind the scenes in the federal court system that the plea bargaining process (and all the rest of it) works pretty much as advertised. This was the State of Florida system, not the Federal one, so it's probably corrupt in different quantities than the one I witnessed firsthand. :)
  - pdabbadabba 12y ago
    That's disappointing to hear. Some state court systems do indeed need a lot of work.

pdabbadabba 12y ago

I'm happy to hear we're on the same side, then. This time I agree with what you say about CFAA. The punishments are too high which, as you say, gives prosecutors an unfair amount of leverage. I'm simply trying to inject a dose of realism into the YC conversation on this issue: unfortunately, I don't think any judge is going to strike down, or meaningfully limit CFAA any time soon. The legal arguments just are not there. If we want it fixed, we need to come up with a strategy to get Congress to fix it. That won't be easy, but I think it may be the only way. (Of course, CFAA is only one of many criminal laws that need to be reformed in precisely the same way. Drug laws are, of course, another great example.) I do want to try to dispel just a bit of your cynicism about the criminal justice system, though. Unfortunately, I can't say a lot about the state systems, but I can tell you from extensive first hand experience behind the scenes in the federal court system that the plea bargaining process (and all the rest of it) works pretty much as advertised. While prosecutors may be overzealous, there is no shady back room business going on behind judges and prosecutors in strip clubs or anywhere else. (I'm not saying, of course, that it NEVER happens, but that, if it does, it would be a rarity and all the other judges would be aghast. The actual culture among federal judges would never condone what you've described.) This doesn't mean that defendants always get a fair chance. They typically have few resources, little knowledge of the system, and are threatened with huge penalties (though at least in federal court the appointed representation actually tends to be decent). But at least the courts themselves are not rigged against them. (I suspect much the same can be said for many state courts, but not, unfortunately, all.)

sarciszewski 12y ago
> I'm happy to hear we're on the same side, then. This time I agree with what you say about CFAA. The punishments are too high which, as you say, gives prosecutors an unfair amount of leverage. I'm simply trying to inject a dose of realism into the YC conversation on this issue: unfortunately, I don't think any judge is going to strike down, or meaningfully limit CFAA any time soon. The legal arguments just are not there. Damn. Oh well. What can we do? :) > If we want it fixed, we need to come up with a strategy to get Congress to fix it. That won't be easy, but I think it may be the only way. (Of course, CFAA is only one of many criminal laws that need to be reformed in precisely the same way. Drug laws are, of course, another great example.) Agreed. > I do want to try to dispel just a bit of your cynicism about the criminal justice system, though. Unfortunately, I can't say a lot about the state systems, but I can tell you from extensive first hand experience behind the scenes in the federal court system that the plea bargaining process (and all the rest of it) works pretty much as advertised. This was the State of Florida system, not the Federal one, so it's probably corrupt in different quantities than the one I witnessed firsthand. :)
- pdabbadabba 12y ago
  That's disappointing to hear. Some state court systems do indeed need a lot of work.