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Meh. There was a reason he got so much vitriol: he's a terrible and manipulative person who is using political methods to push an anti-POSIX agenda. He's a Wee

Meh. There was a reason he got so much vitriol: he's a terrible and manipulative person who is using political methods to push an anti-POSIX agenda. He's a Weev-level troll for an audience too stupid to realize the damage he's doing. He over-exaggerates a joke on IRC into a perceived attempt/threat on his life, and uses that as a springboard to insult Linus Torvalds for doing far more benign things than he regularly commits, whilst playing the victim card to the fullest. I'll join the author in thanking lennart. Thank you for holding the Linux ecosystem back by politically forcing your bad monolithic software on us. Thank you for showing that not only Microsoft can implement "embrace/extend/extinguish" to ruin Linux. Thank you for showing the world how to use an open source company like red hat to muscle your changes into other distributions. Thank you for reinventing JACK's wheel. Thank you for introducing a new paper cut for every one Mark Shuttleworth endeavored to fix. Thank you for saying that people that disagree with you must obviously "hate the disabled" because they don't agree with your decisions. And most importantly, thank you for showing how gullible and vulnerable the open source movement is. Not even Microsoft hurt Linux as much as you have, and this is with SCO vs. IBM in mind. The next time I see him, I plan on telling him this verbatim.

jerven 12y ago
This is exactly the terrible part of the community the OP talks about. Lennart while not being perfect, as no human is, tries to improve the lives of ordinary linux users. Comparing him to a misogynistic nazi like weev is unfair, and you should know that. You are forgetting this is free software, you are free not to use it, just as much as you are. If you don't like systemd or pulseaudio then don't put it on your system. Sure there is a cost associated with going down that road. Your post deserves down votes, because there is nothing enlightened or constructive about it. You don't even bother to discuss why JACK is better than pulse audio and for which usecase. Mark Shuttleworth is introducing more fragmentation and papercuts than Lennart ever could e.g. Wayland vs Mir or the entire reason SystemD even exists and we are not all using upstart. Lennart's audio work led to audio on Linux systems just work for the average user. I expect that SystemD will advance server maintenance as much if not more. All in all you sound like a fan of the Opera who is upset because someone invented the Muscial. Irrational and silly.
- anonbanker 12y ago
  Please provide evidence that Poettering is doing his work for other people, rather than padding for his resume. Please provide evidence that I am not limited to LFS or Gentoo in order to be "free not to use" his work. Please provide evidence that Lennart's work, and not the bug fixing/patches of others to his work, made linux audio "just work". Please provide evidence that JACK doesn't do everything PulseAudio does. Please provide evidence that JACK didn't do everything PulseAudio does before PulseAudio was even written. I eagerly await your evidence.
  - jerven 12y ago
    I think you are rather confused, you judged Poettering guilty not me. You need to prove that he is, not I that he is not. Sure you not a prosecuting attorney but I would expect the same idea of innocent until proven guilty to apply in as well as out of court. You are "free not to use" his work, you are not free to force others not to use his work. If anyone thinks Systemd is banana's and wants to use it in their system/distro then they are free to do so. You are not free to force them not to use it. You are free to try to convince them that it would be better if they don't and they are free to be convinced or not. By the way JACK is for professional audio work, PulseAudio is for consumer audio. Different users, different needs, and yet neatly complementary and cooperative with PulseAudio deferring to JACK2 when its running.
    - anonbanker 12y ago
      So, no evidence, then.
pdkl95 12y ago
> thank you for showing how gullible and vulnerable the open source movement is This is such an important lesson. As people watch systemd/Poettering fall and everybody scrambles to pick up cleanup the mess, I hope this lesson is not lost. PHK's "Operation Orchestra" talk, where he tries to explain this problem of over-trusting and gullibility even more relevant with regards to systemd than it is to the NSA.
cbd1984 12y ago
Meh. Pulseaudio works and JACK doesn't. Your argument is invalid.
- anonbanker 12y ago
  This sounds like a support issue. When did you install JACK? Are you having configuration issues? You might need a GUI to make your configuration easier. Download Cadence from http://kxstudio.sourceforge.net's http://kxstudio.sourceforge.net's repository (or from AUR) and let me know if you still have problems.
  - zimpenfish 12y ago
    But the thing is - if you have configuration issues with JACK and not with PulseAudio, doesn't that rather suggest that one is more useful? Especially when you're suggesting downloading extra software -just to configure something-.
    - anonbanker 12y ago
      If you're having jack configuration options, you are not using a modern distro. With the advent of Cadence and it's suite of tools (easilly installed in Debian/Ubuntu/fedora/arch/gentoo), JACK configuration is brain-dead simple. In fact, if you enjoy the masochism that is PulseAudio, you can have it installed and make it a slave to JACK. Then all your PA-aware apps can be used in any ladspa-compatible DAW (or even via wineASIO - FL Studio anyone?).
  - cbd1984 12y ago
    Pulseaudio works because JACK doesn't have per-application volume control, and (IME) doesn't allow multiple programs to play audio at the same time. The first time I had those in Linux was when I started using Pulseaudio. BTW, everything was configured by the distro, either Red Hat (or perhaps Fedora), Slackware, or Ubuntu.
    - anonbanker 12y ago
mwcampbell 12y ago
I agree with the OP and with jerven's reply. Just one question: What makes POSIX, and Unix in general, so sacred that an anti-POSIX agenda is inherently a terrible thing, worth being opposed with such vitriol? Unix is just one way of many to put together an operating system. If the major GNU/Linux developers, inspired by Mr. Poettering, want to try a different direction, they're entitled to do that.
- JoeAltmaier 12y ago
  Academically I agree. But practically, Unix is a fractured mirror of mostly-similar OSs. Adding one more is what everybody always does. Even POSIX was supposed to be some unifying thing, but its fractured too.
  - anonbanker 12y ago
    So how can we strengthen POSIX so that all the fractures/forks can merge again on one target?
    - JoeAltmaier 12y ago
      Then we would have ... one more version of POSIX.
      - anonbanker 12y ago
        Perhaps a contract from all alternative implementations to abandon their individual forks and work on the "one true POSIX" would solve this, so it doesn't go into XKCD land?
        JoeAltmaier 12y ago
        If you were a Jedi and your mind were stronger than everybody, maybe that would work. But folks can fork things any time they like, and they do.
cbd1984 12y ago
One more thing: Pulseaudio allows me to record audio from all applications, not just the ones that were built specifically with dumping audio to a file in mind. Maybe this is possible in JACK, I don't know, I don't care: It worked for me in Pulseaudio and not in JACK, which means Pulseaudio is more practically useful. Now insult my knowledge of Unix again, O person who didn't know what Busybox was until a few hours ago.
- anonbanker 12y ago
  I think your posts speak for themselves, thanks.

jerven 12y ago

This is exactly the terrible part of the community the OP talks about. Lennart while not being perfect, as no human is, tries to improve the lives of ordinary linux users. Comparing him to a misogynistic nazi like weev is unfair, and you should know that. You are forgetting this is free software, you are free not to use it, just as much as you are. If you don't like systemd or pulseaudio then don't put it on your system. Sure there is a cost associated with going down that road. Your post deserves down votes, because there is nothing enlightened or constructive about it. You don't even bother to discuss why JACK is better than pulse audio and for which usecase. Mark Shuttleworth is introducing more fragmentation and papercuts than Lennart ever could e.g. Wayland vs Mir or the entire reason SystemD even exists and we are not all using upstart. Lennart's audio work led to audio on Linux systems just work for the average user. I expect that SystemD will advance server maintenance as much if not more. All in all you sound like a fan of the Opera who is upset because someone invented the Muscial. Irrational and silly.

anonbanker 12y ago
Please provide evidence that Poettering is doing his work for other people, rather than padding for his resume. Please provide evidence that I am not limited to LFS or Gentoo in order to be "free not to use" his work. Please provide evidence that Lennart's work, and not the bug fixing/patches of others to his work, made linux audio "just work". Please provide evidence that JACK doesn't do everything PulseAudio does. Please provide evidence that JACK didn't do everything PulseAudio does before PulseAudio was even written. I eagerly await your evidence.
- jerven 12y ago
  I think you are rather confused, you judged Poettering guilty not me. You need to prove that he is, not I that he is not. Sure you not a prosecuting attorney but I would expect the same idea of innocent until proven guilty to apply in as well as out of court. You are "free not to use" his work, you are not free to force others not to use his work. If anyone thinks Systemd is banana's and wants to use it in their system/distro then they are free to do so. You are not free to force them not to use it. You are free to try to convince them that it would be better if they don't and they are free to be convinced or not. By the way JACK is for professional audio work, PulseAudio is for consumer audio. Different users, different needs, and yet neatly complementary and cooperative with PulseAudio deferring to JACK2 when its running.
  - anonbanker 12y ago
    So, no evidence, then.

pdkl95 12y ago

> thank you for showing how gullible and vulnerable the open source movement is This is such an important lesson. As people watch systemd/Poettering fall and everybody scrambles to pick up cleanup the mess, I hope this lesson is not lost. PHK's "Operation Orchestra" talk, where he tries to explain this problem of over-trusting and gullibility even more relevant with regards to systemd than it is to the NSA.

cbd1984 12y ago

Meh. Pulseaudio works and JACK doesn't. Your argument is invalid.

anonbanker 12y ago
This sounds like a support issue. When did you install JACK? Are you having configuration issues? You might need a GUI to make your configuration easier. Download Cadence from http://kxstudio.sourceforge.net's http://kxstudio.sourceforge.net's repository (or from AUR) and let me know if you still have problems.
- zimpenfish 12y ago
  But the thing is - if you have configuration issues with JACK and not with PulseAudio, doesn't that rather suggest that one is more useful? Especially when you're suggesting downloading extra software -just to configure something-.
  - anonbanker 12y ago
    If you're having jack configuration options, you are not using a modern distro. With the advent of Cadence and it's suite of tools (easilly installed in Debian/Ubuntu/fedora/arch/gentoo), JACK configuration is brain-dead simple. In fact, if you enjoy the masochism that is PulseAudio, you can have it installed and make it a slave to JACK. Then all your PA-aware apps can be used in any ladspa-compatible DAW (or even via wineASIO - FL Studio anyone?).
- cbd1984 12y ago
  Pulseaudio works because JACK doesn't have per-application volume control, and (IME) doesn't allow multiple programs to play audio at the same time. The first time I had those in Linux was when I started using Pulseaudio. BTW, everything was configured by the distro, either Red Hat (or perhaps Fedora), Slackware, or Ubuntu.
  - anonbanker 12y ago

mwcampbell 12y ago

I agree with the OP and with jerven's reply. Just one question: What makes POSIX, and Unix in general, so sacred that an anti-POSIX agenda is inherently a terrible thing, worth being opposed with such vitriol? Unix is just one way of many to put together an operating system. If the major GNU/Linux developers, inspired by Mr. Poettering, want to try a different direction, they're entitled to do that.

JoeAltmaier 12y ago
Academically I agree. But practically, Unix is a fractured mirror of mostly-similar OSs. Adding one more is what everybody always does. Even POSIX was supposed to be some unifying thing, but its fractured too.
- anonbanker 12y ago
  So how can we strengthen POSIX so that all the fractures/forks can merge again on one target?
  - JoeAltmaier 12y ago
    Then we would have ... one more version of POSIX.
    - anonbanker 12y ago
      Perhaps a contract from all alternative implementations to abandon their individual forks and work on the "one true POSIX" would solve this, so it doesn't go into XKCD land?
      - JoeAltmaier 12y ago
        If you were a Jedi and your mind were stronger than everybody, maybe that would work. But folks can fork things any time they like, and they do.

cbd1984 12y ago

One more thing: Pulseaudio allows me to record audio from all applications, not just the ones that were built specifically with dumping audio to a file in mind. Maybe this is possible in JACK, I don't know, I don't care: It worked for me in Pulseaudio and not in JACK, which means Pulseaudio is more practically useful. Now insult my knowledge of Unix again, O person who didn't know what Busybox was until a few hours ago.

anonbanker 12y ago
I think your posts speak for themselves, thanks.