3 ms·

I'd really rather not have my toaster running, e.g., bash, since a toaster will never get firmware upgrades.

mindslight 12y ago
Rather than encouraging proprietary blobs that will have their own bugs and never get updated (if they're even publicly disclosed), we're better off solving the firmware update problem (eg GPL3).
- georgemcbay 12y ago
  This only solves the problem in theory, not in practice. The vast majority of users aren't going to bitbake their own toaster firmware to fix bugs (nor will they even suspect the latest Linux bug might impact their toaster).
  - mindslight 12y ago
    So then you build auto-updating frameworks on top. If you don't start off with the option to DIY, you cannot possibly end up with a functioning market for repair service. It certainly beats the current standard of manufacturers dropping firmware support after 5 short years, and older devices being left completely high and dry for the sheer majority of people that don't update appliances based on fashion.
- pinkyand 12y ago
  The GPLv3 model, i.e the need to release all your source, isn't compatible with the mindset of embedded product manufacturers, which are highly afraid of copying. Until you solve this mindset problem(god knows how), GPLv3 isn't a workable solution.
  - mindslight 12y ago
    Oh I'm well aware. Version control with something other than zip files isn't compatible with the mindset of embedded developers :P Right now I've got a dishwasher that pukes on every second cycle. I know it's a software problem, yet their solution is to replace the whole controller board, taking months to diagnose and order a new one. Luckily I don't own it, so I'm only paying for this circus with my time. The quip about GPL3 was meant as one possible example, although it does line up incentives pretty well. Users should be wary of devices that have worked quite well with mechanical timers/thermostats/etc being replaced with an essentially infinitely complex microcontroller, and the solution for taming that complexity to be the manufacturer retaining indefinite control.
    - pinkyand 12y ago
      Sure there's a huge problem with the quality and the reliability of appliances.Basically everything's shit, or there's are high end products which are a bad deal, economically. But solving that is much, much bigger than just open-sourcing embedded code. Also >>Oh I'm well aware. Version control with something other than zip files isn't compatible with the mindset of embedded developers :P That's one thing the mbed default IDE(web ide) does well - it gets people to use version control.

Rather than encouraging proprietary blobs that will have their own bugs and never get updated (if they're even publicly disclosed), we're better off solving the firmware update problem (eg GPL3).

georgemcbay 12y ago
This only solves the problem in theory, not in practice. The vast majority of users aren't going to bitbake their own toaster firmware to fix bugs (nor will they even suspect the latest Linux bug might impact their toaster).
- mindslight 12y ago
  So then you build auto-updating frameworks on top. If you don't start off with the option to DIY, you cannot possibly end up with a functioning market for repair service. It certainly beats the current standard of manufacturers dropping firmware support after 5 short years, and older devices being left completely high and dry for the sheer majority of people that don't update appliances based on fashion.
pinkyand 12y ago
The GPLv3 model, i.e the need to release all your source, isn't compatible with the mindset of embedded product manufacturers, which are highly afraid of copying. Until you solve this mindset problem(god knows how), GPLv3 isn't a workable solution.
- mindslight 12y ago
  Oh I'm well aware. Version control with something other than zip files isn't compatible with the mindset of embedded developers :P Right now I've got a dishwasher that pukes on every second cycle. I know it's a software problem, yet their solution is to replace the whole controller board, taking months to diagnose and order a new one. Luckily I don't own it, so I'm only paying for this circus with my time. The quip about GPL3 was meant as one possible example, although it does line up incentives pretty well. Users should be wary of devices that have worked quite well with mechanical timers/thermostats/etc being replaced with an essentially infinitely complex microcontroller, and the solution for taming that complexity to be the manufacturer retaining indefinite control.
  - pinkyand 12y ago
    Sure there's a huge problem with the quality and the reliability of appliances.Basically everything's shit, or there's are high end products which are a bad deal, economically. But solving that is much, much bigger than just open-sourcing embedded code. Also >>Oh I'm well aware. Version control with something other than zip files isn't compatible with the mindset of embedded developers :P That's one thing the mbed default IDE(web ide) does well - it gets people to use version control.