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The rhetoric that a 'Golden Key' will only be used by the 'good guys' is like thinking we can create a 'Golden Gun' that will only shoot the bad guys. The two

The rhetoric that a 'Golden Key' will only be used by the 'good guys' is like thinking we can create a 'Golden Gun' that will only shoot the bad guys. The two issues I see are: 1) The bad guys might still be able to get the key (as the article discusses) 2) We don't know who the 'good guys' are. It's very comforting to think that there's some mysterious superhero who will only fight for good but this ignores the large issue: no one can really agree on what "good" is.

JoshTriplett 12y ago
2.5) We can't agree on what "good" is because there is no unified 'good' side here; there are a giant pile of adversaries. Everyone will say they're the good ones and everyone else is bad. As one obvious example, the intelligence services in one country won't necessarily trust those of another, and vice versa. The only sane implementation is to use the definition of 'adversary' provided by the person whose data you're protecting. Anything else would be broken. This is the same key escrow battle we had when cryptography was first propagated: "Oh no, it actually works, and we can't trivially break it, it'll be the end of the world!". Only this time, the battle is "Oh no, it actually works for people who aren't technically savvy, it'll be the end of the world!". The answer is the same now as it was then: no, go away, we're building solutions that work and you're asking us to make them broken.
malgorithms 12y ago
This is great. Still, if we start arguing that maybe your government is the bad guy, certainly we won't convince the government. Also we won't convince the people who blindly trust the government. Therefore, it might actually be most productive to avoid point number 2, as valid as it is, and take as premise that the government & Apple are both currently good guys. And then still convince a secure golden key is a bad idea. With this in mind, the closest I dared to get was the discussion of the future. Governments do change. Whoever has access to your golden key might be a bad guy tomorrow, or invaded by a bad guy. Btw, I even took out a whole section about questionably lawful warrants before publishing. For this reason.
PythonicAlpha 12y ago
As much I see today, there are no good guys at all in the world. There are only some guys, who try to be good, but so many fail.
- spopejoy 12y ago
  Thank You! It's very depressing to see constant regurgitation of cops-and-robbers morality. The FBI has deep historic ties to the Pinkertons, and has historically spent at least half of its resources (conservatively) on anti-radicalism. The DEA is so deeply interwound with the CIA that half of the drug dealers in the world are protected and immune. Local police forces are the only entity that is serious about "fighting crime," and their trustworthiness is inconsistent from region to region, to say the least. When you consider that the largest, most economically damaging crimes are being committed by banks and hedge funds, we can basically conclude that society is preyed upon by forces that have no counter. Instead, we're arguing over a fantasy that somehow we need the police and FBI to protect us, thereby meaning we have to give up whatever meager protections we have against them. I'm no Apple fan. In fact I'm still incredulous that this really means what they say it does -- that iDevices are secure by default. But if it's actually true, then freaking HOORAY FOR APPLE. Enjoy it while it lasts.
  - PythonicAlpha 12y ago
    You are welcome. we can basically conclude that society is preyed upon by forces that have no counter. That is, what distresses me also! It is more and more uncovered, that there is no moral anchor anymore in our societies -- and where reference is made to a higher being (as on the Dollar bill), situation is even worse. In Germany, we have a "christian" party with "christian" explicitly in its name -- but that is also the party, that is most ensnared with lobbyists and corporation interests and cares the least about people. It is just a tradition, to brainwash the people.
hadoukenio 12y ago
Golden Key vs the Golden Gun needs to be a meme. If this were to happen, then everyone (more importantly, laymen) would understand why it just doesn't work.
rakoo 12y ago
0) A backdoor is still a door; it can be used to enter your system, whether you allow it or not, whether you've shared the golden key or not.
visarga 12y ago
3) there could be a Snowden in any secret room at NSA. Even the "good guys" might not be so submissive. You don't know what gets leaked.

JoshTriplett 12y ago

2.5) We can't agree on what "good" is because there is no unified 'good' side here; there are a giant pile of adversaries. Everyone will say they're the good ones and everyone else is bad. As one obvious example, the intelligence services in one country won't necessarily trust those of another, and vice versa. The only sane implementation is to use the definition of 'adversary' provided by the person whose data you're protecting. Anything else would be broken. This is the same key escrow battle we had when cryptography was first propagated: "Oh no, it actually works, and we can't trivially break it, it'll be the end of the world!". Only this time, the battle is "Oh no, it actually works for people who aren't technically savvy, it'll be the end of the world!". The answer is the same now as it was then: no, go away, we're building solutions that work and you're asking us to make them broken.

malgorithms 12y ago

This is great. Still, if we start arguing that maybe your government is the bad guy, certainly we won't convince the government. Also we won't convince the people who blindly trust the government. Therefore, it might actually be most productive to avoid point number 2, as valid as it is, and take as premise that the government & Apple are both currently good guys. And then still convince a secure golden key is a bad idea. With this in mind, the closest I dared to get was the discussion of the future. Governments do change. Whoever has access to your golden key might be a bad guy tomorrow, or invaded by a bad guy. Btw, I even took out a whole section about questionably lawful warrants before publishing. For this reason.

PythonicAlpha 12y ago

As much I see today, there are no good guys at all in the world. There are only some guys, who try to be good, but so many fail.

spopejoy 12y ago
Thank You! It's very depressing to see constant regurgitation of cops-and-robbers morality. The FBI has deep historic ties to the Pinkertons, and has historically spent at least half of its resources (conservatively) on anti-radicalism. The DEA is so deeply interwound with the CIA that half of the drug dealers in the world are protected and immune. Local police forces are the only entity that is serious about "fighting crime," and their trustworthiness is inconsistent from region to region, to say the least. When you consider that the largest, most economically damaging crimes are being committed by banks and hedge funds, we can basically conclude that society is preyed upon by forces that have no counter. Instead, we're arguing over a fantasy that somehow we need the police and FBI to protect us, thereby meaning we have to give up whatever meager protections we have against them. I'm no Apple fan. In fact I'm still incredulous that this really means what they say it does -- that iDevices are secure by default. But if it's actually true, then freaking HOORAY FOR APPLE. Enjoy it while it lasts.
- PythonicAlpha 12y ago
  You are welcome. we can basically conclude that society is preyed upon by forces that have no counter. That is, what distresses me also! It is more and more uncovered, that there is no moral anchor anymore in our societies -- and where reference is made to a higher being (as on the Dollar bill), situation is even worse. In Germany, we have a "christian" party with "christian" explicitly in its name -- but that is also the party, that is most ensnared with lobbyists and corporation interests and cares the least about people. It is just a tradition, to brainwash the people.

hadoukenio 12y ago

Golden Key vs the Golden Gun needs to be a meme. If this were to happen, then everyone (more importantly, laymen) would understand why it just doesn't work.

rakoo 12y ago

0) A backdoor is still a door; it can be used to enter your system, whether you allow it or not, whether you've shared the golden key or not.

visarga 12y ago

3) there could be a Snowden in any secret room at NSA. Even the "good guys" might not be so submissive. You don't know what gets leaked.