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Based on the thesis "perhaps Apple and Google could invent a kind of secure golden key” so that the good guys could get to it if necessary." The bottom line is

by rqebmm 12y ago

Based on the thesis "perhaps Apple and Google could invent a kind of secure golden key” so that the good guys could get to it if necessary." The bottom line is: Sadly, there's no way to tell who the "good guys" are.

TillE 12y ago
Or simply: nobody can be trusted not to abuse power. That's why we have transparency, checks and balances, etc. I can believe that a lot of people have good intentions. But that doesn't mean their actions are always right.
jerf 12y ago
That's a weak argument because there's a lot of people who aren't willing to consider the possibility that an assumed-good guy might actually be a bad guy, either now or at a date in the future, and may even mock you for suggesting it. The HN gestalt itself has varied opinions on this matter depending on the topic. Much better is just to observe that any such key can't be kept from the bad guys, whoever they may be, and backdoored encryption over time tends to be no encryption at all. This is simply the truth. For all we know Snowden carried out some encryption keys, and if he didn't, for all we know Snowden II will. Making the former argument puts you in a position of trying to argue uphill against what may be some very solid presuppositions about the goodness of the good guys; the second argument is undeniable, and very simple. (Of course some will managed to deny it anyhow; there's no such thing as a perfectly effective argument. But it's much stronger.)
- rqebmm 12y ago
  I don't think we disagree. My point is very much in line with "any such key can't be kept from the bad guys, whoever they may be". Even if you give it to only the "good guys" and somehow ensure that nobody else could get it, there's no way to know the "good guys" will always be "good". It all depends on context. If the NSA is stopping people from harming innocents, they (rightfully) think they're the good guys. If they are secretly spying on said innocents without their consent, people (rightfully) think they're the bad guys.
grecy 12y ago
With all the revelations in the last couple of years, I think it's pretty clear there are no good guys at all. From governments, to corporations, to malls, to your neighbors - they're all going to dig dirt on you given half the chance.

by rqebmm 12y ago

TillE 12y ago

Or simply: nobody can be trusted not to abuse power. That's why we have transparency, checks and balances, etc. I can believe that a lot of people have good intentions. But that doesn't mean their actions are always right.

jerf 12y ago

That's a weak argument because there's a lot of people who aren't willing to consider the possibility that an assumed-good guy might actually be a bad guy, either now or at a date in the future, and may even mock you for suggesting it. The HN gestalt itself has varied opinions on this matter depending on the topic. Much better is just to observe that any such key can't be kept from the bad guys, whoever they may be, and backdoored encryption over time tends to be no encryption at all. This is simply the truth. For all we know Snowden carried out some encryption keys, and if he didn't, for all we know Snowden II will. Making the former argument puts you in a position of trying to argue uphill against what may be some very solid presuppositions about the goodness of the good guys; the second argument is undeniable, and very simple. (Of course some will managed to deny it anyhow; there's no such thing as a perfectly effective argument. But it's much stronger.)

rqebmm 12y ago
I don't think we disagree. My point is very much in line with "any such key can't be kept from the bad guys, whoever they may be". Even if you give it to only the "good guys" and somehow ensure that nobody else could get it, there's no way to know the "good guys" will always be "good". It all depends on context. If the NSA is stopping people from harming innocents, they (rightfully) think they're the good guys. If they are secretly spying on said innocents without their consent, people (rightfully) think they're the bad guys.

grecy 12y ago

With all the revelations in the last couple of years, I think it's pretty clear there are no good guys at all. From governments, to corporations, to malls, to your neighbors - they're all going to dig dirt on you given half the chance.