5 ms·

I agree completely and yet ... I feel a bit responsible too. In my mind, Kathy has credibility because she built it the old fashioned way - being worthy of tru

by smoyer 12y ago

I agree completely and yet ... I feel a bit responsible too. In my mind, Kathy has credibility because she built it the old fashioned way - being worthy of trust. Being a Java developer, I watched JavaRanch grow and I especially loved watching her presentations (the BoS talks are amazing). And yet I under-appreciated what these attacks were doing to her as well as how severe they'd become. No having celebrity of my own, perhaps I can't understand it fully but what I could have done is at least speak against the growing hatred. I'm going to start refuting trolls (when I can) and I'm going to try to be that person who's dependable under fire - Kathy, I've got your back ... and I'm sorry for my quiet complicity with your past attackers. “All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.” ― Edmund Burke

JoeAltmaier 12y ago
Great attitude. But I wonder if 'refuting trolls' is the same as feeding them. What else is there to try?
- unchocked 12y ago
  Regardless of attitude, she is most definitely feeding the trolls.
  - AnimalMuppet 12y ago
    Did you actually read the article? That's not feeding the trolls. That's, after six years of ignoring the trolls, deciding that it's gotten toxic enough that she needs to make a public refutation of weev's reality distortion field.
    - unchocked 12y ago
      Aren't trolls getting lulz off of this? If so, they've been fed, regardless of whatever reasons it's so. Nobody feeds trolls to keep them fat and happy; people feed trolls because they are against trolling, so we have to remind them to stop because it's counterproductive. I do think it's going to prove counterproductive for internet discourse as a whole.
      - Abraln 12y ago
        At this point though, the "con" of feeding trolls is outweighed by the "pro" of increasing public awareness. Plus, the "trolls" involved here are so severe that they no longer require a response to continue. The core of the "don't feed the trolls" argument seems to be that they will eventually give up, but that only works with the mildest of offenders. It could however be argued that by pulling away from the public eye she actually was feeding them, and that the best course of action would be to act like they don't exist. I still find it doubtfull that it would have stopped it though, as in the minds of the most obsessed trolls the very act of ignoring them tells them their tactics are working. Will writing this make things worse for her? Probably, but saying it's her fault makes as much sense blaming sexual assault victims for wearing anything even remotely revealing. -sent from phone, so please forgive spelling/grammar
- steve-benjamins 12y ago
  In any bullying, there are three players: the bully, the bullied and the witnesses. People who are bullied will often internalize that they are worthless (and that's why they are bullied). That can be one of the hardest parts of being bullied. This happens especially if people who witness the bullying stay silent. Than the bullied will feel even more alone (and will feel awful about how bad they feel). But if witnesses stand up and say- "hey, bully: you're being an asshole", then that is a service to the bullied. The bullied will at least not feel so alone. Hope that makes sense.
  - JoeAltmaier 12y ago
    Or maybe ignore the troll, but reinforce the 'bullied' with "ignore that guy, they're being jerks". Less feeding, more refuting.
    - jvanenk 12y ago
      You should really really REALLY read the article.
      - dllthomas 12y ago
        In what way does the parent comment indicate the author did not read the article? The article discusses options as a target of trolling, the parent seems directed at bystanders.
        gknoy 12y ago
        The article specifically calls out the "ignore the trolling" tactic is specifically a losing one, as the trolls will simply turn up the volume / severity of abuse. Nearly the entire article elaborates on this theme -- that it's not something that can be ignored, nor fought easily, and that telling someone to "just ignore it" is not going to solve it.
        dllthomas 12y ago
- pcunite 12y ago
  I would say be careful to not be directed by the trolls. Real trolls are good at directing all of us to attack the innocent. Thus while you may feel like you are "stopping" someone, you may in fact be attacking the wrong target. Look at what happened with Reddit and the Boston Marathon Bomber. Some trolls love to create these vortexes ... it was the end-game for them all along. So ... if the person being attacked is a public person, I would say tread lightly. If both are anonymous ... perhaps simply getting into thread "thought defense" is not wise and should be avoided? There are trolls on HN that have very high karma and yet are anonymous accounts. We (in the technical community) need to pause when we allow for that type of power that can be used against others.
- tnorthcutt 12y ago
  Have you considered the possibility that "don't feed the trolls" may not be an effective modus operandi?
  - watwut 12y ago
    There is difference between trolls and harassers. If I will go through this forum and add reply to every post in an attempt to get random people angry, I am a troll. If I personally target you, publish your ssn and spread lies about you, then I am harassing you. The solution to trolling is not feeding them in majority of cases, but it will not solve harassment problem.
- pjc50 12y ago
  The key thing is to break down the vague word "trolling" into specific bad actions. Threats. Verbal abuse. Inciting harm. Doxxing. It's fairly easy to get people to agree that these are bad and use the existing antispam machinery to get rid of them. You don't refute death threats, you delete them, ban the user, and if they're persistent enough report them to the police. The older sense of troll (posting controversial opinions and false statements in hope of getting furious disagreement) does respond to "feeding", but is not so directly harmful. Then you have to make a judgement call as to whether some opinions which aren't specifically violent or threatening should be banned anyway (e.g. "women do not belong in IT"). Allowing those opinions drives people (e.g. women) away, often quietly and without fuss, but creates a subtly oppressive environment. This is not easy to do and will itself attract controversy and trolling.
  - magicalist 12y ago
    > You don't refute death threats, you delete them, ban the user, and if they're persistent enough report them to the police. This is the same as ignoring them, unfortunately, and the article goes on at great length at how that's not sufficient. A blocked user makes another account, and can still goad others into joining them. Meanwhile the police do nothing in nearly all cases. From the article: > You’re probably more likely to win the lottery than to get any law enforcement agency in the United States to take action when you are harassed online, no matter how viscously and explicitly. Local agencies lack the resources, federal agencies won’t bother.
- DanBC 12y ago
  This is the tricky bit. I suggest i: a small short website that can serve as a point of accurate information ii: support for the person under attack. Whether privately by email (or similar) or a short single "please don't let the attacks get to you". iii: disengaging from the trolls, and building a culture where responding to trolling is avoided. The UK had some high profile arrests, trials, and imprisonments recently. I'm not sure if it made much difference in the frequency or severity of trolling. This report from 2013 says that 2,000 reports are made to police in London each year. I don't know how many of those are the severe end. http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-24160004 http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-24160004 This report says that 1,700 reports of online abuse reached courts http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-23502291 http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-23502291
- smoyer 12y ago
  I think what Kathy Sierra described was people following charismatic "trolls" without thinking ... if those of us capable of rational thought actually speak out, I'm assuming we'd be the majority. Trolls and their followers are that same radical 10% of the population that bombs abortion clinics (or WTCs).

by smoyer 12y ago

JoeAltmaier 12y ago

Great attitude. But I wonder if 'refuting trolls' is the same as feeding them. What else is there to try?

unchocked 12y ago
Regardless of attitude, she is most definitely feeding the trolls.
- AnimalMuppet 12y ago
  Did you actually read the article? That's not feeding the trolls. That's, after six years of ignoring the trolls, deciding that it's gotten toxic enough that she needs to make a public refutation of weev's reality distortion field.
  - unchocked 12y ago
    Aren't trolls getting lulz off of this? If so, they've been fed, regardless of whatever reasons it's so. Nobody feeds trolls to keep them fat and happy; people feed trolls because they are against trolling, so we have to remind them to stop because it's counterproductive. I do think it's going to prove counterproductive for internet discourse as a whole.
    - Abraln 12y ago
      At this point though, the "con" of feeding trolls is outweighed by the "pro" of increasing public awareness. Plus, the "trolls" involved here are so severe that they no longer require a response to continue. The core of the "don't feed the trolls" argument seems to be that they will eventually give up, but that only works with the mildest of offenders. It could however be argued that by pulling away from the public eye she actually was feeding them, and that the best course of action would be to act like they don't exist. I still find it doubtfull that it would have stopped it though, as in the minds of the most obsessed trolls the very act of ignoring them tells them their tactics are working. Will writing this make things worse for her? Probably, but saying it's her fault makes as much sense blaming sexual assault victims for wearing anything even remotely revealing. -sent from phone, so please forgive spelling/grammar
steve-benjamins 12y ago
In any bullying, there are three players: the bully, the bullied and the witnesses. People who are bullied will often internalize that they are worthless (and that's why they are bullied). That can be one of the hardest parts of being bullied. This happens especially if people who witness the bullying stay silent. Than the bullied will feel even more alone (and will feel awful about how bad they feel). But if witnesses stand up and say- "hey, bully: you're being an asshole", then that is a service to the bullied. The bullied will at least not feel so alone. Hope that makes sense.
- JoeAltmaier 12y ago
  Or maybe ignore the troll, but reinforce the 'bullied' with "ignore that guy, they're being jerks". Less feeding, more refuting.
  - jvanenk 12y ago
    You should really really REALLY read the article.
    - dllthomas 12y ago
      In what way does the parent comment indicate the author did not read the article? The article discusses options as a target of trolling, the parent seems directed at bystanders.
      - gknoy 12y ago
        The article specifically calls out the "ignore the trolling" tactic is specifically a losing one, as the trolls will simply turn up the volume / severity of abuse. Nearly the entire article elaborates on this theme -- that it's not something that can be ignored, nor fought easily, and that telling someone to "just ignore it" is not going to solve it.
        dllthomas 12y ago
pcunite 12y ago
I would say be careful to not be directed by the trolls. Real trolls are good at directing all of us to attack the innocent. Thus while you may feel like you are "stopping" someone, you may in fact be attacking the wrong target. Look at what happened with Reddit and the Boston Marathon Bomber. Some trolls love to create these vortexes ... it was the end-game for them all along. So ... if the person being attacked is a public person, I would say tread lightly. If both are anonymous ... perhaps simply getting into thread "thought defense" is not wise and should be avoided? There are trolls on HN that have very high karma and yet are anonymous accounts. We (in the technical community) need to pause when we allow for that type of power that can be used against others.
tnorthcutt 12y ago
Have you considered the possibility that "don't feed the trolls" may not be an effective modus operandi?
- watwut 12y ago
  There is difference between trolls and harassers. If I will go through this forum and add reply to every post in an attempt to get random people angry, I am a troll. If I personally target you, publish your ssn and spread lies about you, then I am harassing you. The solution to trolling is not feeding them in majority of cases, but it will not solve harassment problem.
pjc50 12y ago
The key thing is to break down the vague word "trolling" into specific bad actions. Threats. Verbal abuse. Inciting harm. Doxxing. It's fairly easy to get people to agree that these are bad and use the existing antispam machinery to get rid of them. You don't refute death threats, you delete them, ban the user, and if they're persistent enough report them to the police. The older sense of troll (posting controversial opinions and false statements in hope of getting furious disagreement) does respond to "feeding", but is not so directly harmful. Then you have to make a judgement call as to whether some opinions which aren't specifically violent or threatening should be banned anyway (e.g. "women do not belong in IT"). Allowing those opinions drives people (e.g. women) away, often quietly and without fuss, but creates a subtly oppressive environment. This is not easy to do and will itself attract controversy and trolling.
- magicalist 12y ago
  > You don't refute death threats, you delete them, ban the user, and if they're persistent enough report them to the police. This is the same as ignoring them, unfortunately, and the article goes on at great length at how that's not sufficient. A blocked user makes another account, and can still goad others into joining them. Meanwhile the police do nothing in nearly all cases. From the article: > You’re probably more likely to win the lottery than to get any law enforcement agency in the United States to take action when you are harassed online, no matter how viscously and explicitly. Local agencies lack the resources, federal agencies won’t bother.
DanBC 12y ago
This is the tricky bit. I suggest i: a small short website that can serve as a point of accurate information ii: support for the person under attack. Whether privately by email (or similar) or a short single "please don't let the attacks get to you". iii: disengaging from the trolls, and building a culture where responding to trolling is avoided. The UK had some high profile arrests, trials, and imprisonments recently. I'm not sure if it made much difference in the frequency or severity of trolling. This report from 2013 says that 2,000 reports are made to police in London each year. I don't know how many of those are the severe end. http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-24160004 http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-24160004 This report says that 1,700 reports of online abuse reached courts http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-23502291 http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-23502291
smoyer 12y ago
I think what Kathy Sierra described was people following charismatic "trolls" without thinking ... if those of us capable of rational thought actually speak out, I'm assuming we'd be the majority. Trolls and their followers are that same radical 10% of the population that bombs abortion clinics (or WTCs).