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It might be illegal in _your_ country. But AFAIK reverse engineering or installing custom software on a device I bought is not illegal in Germany. Probably in m

by biafra 12y ago

It might be illegal in _your_ country. But AFAIK reverse engineering or installing custom software on a device I bought is not illegal in Germany. Probably in most countries.

psykovsky 12y ago
Motorola tried to tell me my phone warranty was off because I requested the bootloader unlock code from their site. Well, they're wrong. They cannot do that. It's illegal. I have every right to unlock my phone. Europe really is different from the USA.
- leni536 12y ago
  Something voiding the warranty or being illegal is quite different matter though. I'm pretty sure that disassembling your phone voids your warranty but I would be surprised if it was illegal.
  - kuschku 12y ago
    Disassembling your phone only voids the warranty on the overall device, not on the individual parts. Also changing the software does not void the warranty of the hardware. Also if a contract contains a clause forbidding you to disassemble, decompile, or debug something, then the clause is automatically void. Yay for EU rights.
    - psykovsky 12y ago
      Exactly. Doesn't matter what Motorola says. The Terms they made me "read" and "agree" upon are void because they go against the law. I'm free to get rid of the Motorola software on my phone and replace it without voiding the 24 months warranty on my phone.
- arrrg 12y ago
  Warranties can be tied to limitations and restrictions the manufacturers make up. (There probably are some limitations to that to do with contract law. It surely is quite complicated, but voiding your warranty by unlocking your device doesn’t seem unreasonable to me.) Warranties are voluntary and distinct from seller liability for defects in the product. That liability is legally required in the EU. The details of the implementation are different in different countries. In Germany it’s like this: The seller (and only the seller) is liable and you have to go to the seller to make a liability claim. So if you bought your phone from Amazon you have to write Amazon, not Motorola. If you bought it from a carrier you have to go to the carrier. If you didn’t buy the phone directly from the manufacturer that manufacturer doesn’t have to do anything when you come to them with a defect phone. It’s the seller’s problem. (This is mostly to prevent a runaround, where seller and manufacturer both tell you each other is responsible for fixing the problem. This creates one entity that is clearly and obviously responsible and has to handle the problem.) It’s for defects present when the device was sold and that’s it. (However, subsequent defects of some component because the device was delivered with some faulty or not up to spec components count, too.) In the first six months the seller has to prove the defect wasn’t present when the device was delivered to not be liable. You, the buyer, don’t have to prove anything. That burden of proof, however, reverses after six months and up to 24 months (then there is no more liability), making it very hard in practice for buyers to prove after those six months that the defect was there when the device was sold. (However, courts have relaxed the requirements for that. Buyers usually don’t need to get some expensive expert opinion or something like that. If you can make a very good and informed argument for your case you should usually be covered.) The seller can repair or replace the device. Buyers don’t have right to get their device replaced when it’s possible to repair it. If repairing and replacing fails a number of times (I think three) the buyer can demand their money back. That’s the liability. A legal requirement and very complicated – and also wholly distinct from warranties. By unlocking your phone you may have voided your warranty, but you certainly didn’t void the legal liability of the seller.
  - icebraining 12y ago
    They're still called warranties in many EU countries, and simply saying it'll "void your warranty" is incorrect, and possibly illegal. Oh, and in some countries the law has more teeth: here in Portugal the burden of proof never shifts during the 24 months :)
xorcist 12y ago
It's not reverse engineering that is illegal but "cirumventing a digital protection device" (modulo translation issues). What does Germany's implementation of the EUCD say? The EUCD was the DMCA pushed through the EU by trade agreements. In some ways it's worse, since it lacks the safe harbor provision. The end user situation isn't as bad though because there are other laws that protect you. In Sweden there is a provision that it is specifically allows it for interoperability reasons for example. Funny you mention Germany though. It is one of the few countries that tried to outlaw "hacking tools", broadly defined as including a lot of reverse engineering tools you would use for the purpose you mentioned. I don't know what happened with that, perhaps the situation have improved?
- biafra 12y ago
  As I understand it, EUCD is about copyright protection. Unlocking my bootloader is not a violation of this. So EUCD does not apply here.
- chopin 12y ago
  >Funny you mention Germany though. It is one of the few countries that tried to outlaw "hacking tools", broadly defined as including a lot of reverse engineering tools you would use for the purpose you mentioned. I don't know what happened with that, perhaps the situation have improved? No.

by biafra 12y ago

It might be illegal in _your_ country. But AFAIK reverse engineering or installing custom software on a device I bought is not illegal in Germany. Probably in most countries.

psykovsky 12y ago

Motorola tried to tell me my phone warranty was off because I requested the bootloader unlock code from their site. Well, they're wrong. They cannot do that. It's illegal. I have every right to unlock my phone. Europe really is different from the USA.

leni536 12y ago
Something voiding the warranty or being illegal is quite different matter though. I'm pretty sure that disassembling your phone voids your warranty but I would be surprised if it was illegal.
- kuschku 12y ago
  Disassembling your phone only voids the warranty on the overall device, not on the individual parts. Also changing the software does not void the warranty of the hardware. Also if a contract contains a clause forbidding you to disassemble, decompile, or debug something, then the clause is automatically void. Yay for EU rights.
  - psykovsky 12y ago
    Exactly. Doesn't matter what Motorola says. The Terms they made me "read" and "agree" upon are void because they go against the law. I'm free to get rid of the Motorola software on my phone and replace it without voiding the 24 months warranty on my phone.
arrrg 12y ago
Warranties can be tied to limitations and restrictions the manufacturers make up. (There probably are some limitations to that to do with contract law. It surely is quite complicated, but voiding your warranty by unlocking your device doesn’t seem unreasonable to me.) Warranties are voluntary and distinct from seller liability for defects in the product. That liability is legally required in the EU. The details of the implementation are different in different countries. In Germany it’s like this: The seller (and only the seller) is liable and you have to go to the seller to make a liability claim. So if you bought your phone from Amazon you have to write Amazon, not Motorola. If you bought it from a carrier you have to go to the carrier. If you didn’t buy the phone directly from the manufacturer that manufacturer doesn’t have to do anything when you come to them with a defect phone. It’s the seller’s problem. (This is mostly to prevent a runaround, where seller and manufacturer both tell you each other is responsible for fixing the problem. This creates one entity that is clearly and obviously responsible and has to handle the problem.) It’s for defects present when the device was sold and that’s it. (However, subsequent defects of some component because the device was delivered with some faulty or not up to spec components count, too.) In the first six months the seller has to prove the defect wasn’t present when the device was delivered to not be liable. You, the buyer, don’t have to prove anything. That burden of proof, however, reverses after six months and up to 24 months (then there is no more liability), making it very hard in practice for buyers to prove after those six months that the defect was there when the device was sold. (However, courts have relaxed the requirements for that. Buyers usually don’t need to get some expensive expert opinion or something like that. If you can make a very good and informed argument for your case you should usually be covered.) The seller can repair or replace the device. Buyers don’t have right to get their device replaced when it’s possible to repair it. If repairing and replacing fails a number of times (I think three) the buyer can demand their money back. That’s the liability. A legal requirement and very complicated – and also wholly distinct from warranties. By unlocking your phone you may have voided your warranty, but you certainly didn’t void the legal liability of the seller.
- icebraining 12y ago
  They're still called warranties in many EU countries, and simply saying it'll "void your warranty" is incorrect, and possibly illegal. Oh, and in some countries the law has more teeth: here in Portugal the burden of proof never shifts during the 24 months :)

xorcist 12y ago

It's not reverse engineering that is illegal but "cirumventing a digital protection device" (modulo translation issues). What does Germany's implementation of the EUCD say? The EUCD was the DMCA pushed through the EU by trade agreements. In some ways it's worse, since it lacks the safe harbor provision. The end user situation isn't as bad though because there are other laws that protect you. In Sweden there is a provision that it is specifically allows it for interoperability reasons for example. Funny you mention Germany though. It is one of the few countries that tried to outlaw "hacking tools", broadly defined as including a lot of reverse engineering tools you would use for the purpose you mentioned. I don't know what happened with that, perhaps the situation have improved?

biafra 12y ago
As I understand it, EUCD is about copyright protection. Unlocking my bootloader is not a violation of this. So EUCD does not apply here.
chopin 12y ago
>Funny you mention Germany though. It is one of the few countries that tried to outlaw "hacking tools", broadly defined as including a lot of reverse engineering tools you would use for the purpose you mentioned. I don't know what happened with that, perhaps the situation have improved? No.