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And of course it's illegal to install other operating systems on smartphones and other devices. Citation required?

by Nitramp 12y ago

Karunamon 12y ago
Most modern smartphones are bootloader locked. Circumventing those locks is arguably violating the anti-circumvention bits of the DMCA. Therefore, to install another OS, you have to break the law. Worth mentioning is that it's illegal in the same way breaking the speed limit by 1MPH is illegal, i.e. technically against the law, but your chances for ending up in trouble for doing it are nil.
- xnull2guest 12y ago
  Yeah looks like that was the argument that held up until just a few years ago. I remember it being 'illegal' (like breaking the speed limit) at that time. As of 2010 it appears to have changed. Note that it IS illegal to modify a phone so that it connects to a carrier it wasn't 'intended' to connect to.
  - Crito 12y ago
    That is only for smartphones specifically though, as I understand it.
- droopyEyelids 12y ago
  Thats actually not worth mentioning. Speeding by 1mph isn't a practical or useful law to enforce. Creating a new OS and breaking the boot loader would require a group of people working together in some organized form, which would make it practical to target, and it'd probably be financially threatening to a larger company, which would make it useful to enforce. In 2014, companies are the political and cultural entities in our society, and a law like this kills off a class of entity.
- biafra 12y ago
  It might be illegal in _your_ country. But AFAIK reverse engineering or installing custom software on a device I bought is not illegal in Germany. Probably in most countries.
  - psykovsky 12y ago
    Motorola tried to tell me my phone warranty was off because I requested the bootloader unlock code from their site. Well, they're wrong. They cannot do that. It's illegal. I have every right to unlock my phone. Europe really is different from the USA.
    - leni536 12y ago
      Something voiding the warranty or being illegal is quite different matter though. I'm pretty sure that disassembling your phone voids your warranty but I would be surprised if it was illegal.
      - kuschku 12y ago
        Disassembling your phone only voids the warranty on the overall device, not on the individual parts. Also changing the software does not void the warranty of the hardware. Also if a contract contains a clause forbidding you to disassemble, decompile, or debug something, then the clause is automatically void. Yay for EU rights.
        psykovsky 12y ago
        Exactly. Doesn't matter what Motorola says. The Terms they made me "read" and "agree" upon are void because they go against the law. I'm free to get rid of the Motorola software on my phone and replace it without voiding the 24 months warranty on my phone.
    - arrrg 12y ago
      Warranties can be tied to limitations and restrictions the manufacturers make up. (There probably are some limitations to that to do with contract law. It surely is quite complicated, but voiding your warranty by unlocking your device doesn’t seem unreasonable to me.) Warranties are voluntary and distinct from seller liability for defects in the product. That liability is legally required in the EU. The details of the implementation are different in different countries. In Germany it’s like this: The seller (and only the seller) is liable and you have to go to the seller to make a liability claim. So if you bought your phone from Amazon you have to write Amazon, not Motorola. If you bought it from a carrier you have to go to the carrier. If you didn’t buy the phone directly from the manufacturer that manufacturer doesn’t have to do anything when you come to them with a defect phone. It’s the seller’s problem. (This is mostly to prevent a runaround, where seller and manufacturer both tell you each other is responsible for fixing the problem. This creates one entity that is clearly and obviously responsible and has to handle the problem.) It’s for defects present when the device was sold and that’s it. (However, subsequent defects of some component because the device was delivered with some faulty or not up to spec components count, too.) In the first six months the seller has to prove the defect wasn’t present when the device was delivered to not be liable. You, the buyer, don’t have to prove anything. That burden of proof, however, reverses after six months and up to 24 months (then there is no more liability), making it very hard in practice for buyers to prove after those six months that the defect was there when the device was sold. (However, courts have relaxed the requirements for that. Buyers usually don’t need to get some expensive expert opinion or something like that. If you can make a very good and informed argument for your case you should usually be covered.) The seller can repair or replace the device. Buyers don’t have right to get their device replaced when it’s possible to repair it. If repairing and replacing fails a number of times (I think three) the buyer can demand their money back. That’s the liability. A legal requirement and very complicated – and also wholly distinct from warranties. By unlocking your phone you may have voided your warranty, but you certainly didn’t void the legal liability of the seller.
- higherpurpose 12y ago
  There was an exception against that until about a year ago. Then this year that exception was added back in. http://www.theverge.com/2014/8/1/5959915/president-barack-obama-signing-phone-unlocking-bill http://www.theverge.com/2014/8/1/5959915/president-barack-ob...
xnull2guest 12y ago
I looked it up and am wrong as of 2010 when the Registrar of Copyright of the Library of Congress ruled that, in fact, it was legal to jailbreak iPhones and other smartphones. Apologies, I will remove the comment above.
ajb 12y ago
That was a prediction, not a statement - it's from Stallman's 1997 'right to read' cited above.

And of course it's illegal to install other operating systems on smartphones and other devices. Citation required?

by Nitramp 12y ago

And of course it's illegal to install other operating systems on smartphones and other devices. Citation required?

Most modern smartphones are bootloader locked. Circumventing those locks is arguably violating the anti-circumvention bits of the DMCA. Therefore, to install another OS, you have to break the law. Worth mentioning is that it's illegal in the same way breaking the speed limit by 1MPH is illegal, i.e. technically against the law, but your chances for ending up in trouble for doing it are nil.

xnull2guest 12y ago
Yeah looks like that was the argument that held up until just a few years ago. I remember it being 'illegal' (like breaking the speed limit) at that time. As of 2010 it appears to have changed. Note that it IS illegal to modify a phone so that it connects to a carrier it wasn't 'intended' to connect to.
- Crito 12y ago
  That is only for smartphones specifically though, as I understand it.
droopyEyelids 12y ago
Thats actually not worth mentioning. Speeding by 1mph isn't a practical or useful law to enforce. Creating a new OS and breaking the boot loader would require a group of people working together in some organized form, which would make it practical to target, and it'd probably be financially threatening to a larger company, which would make it useful to enforce. In 2014, companies are the political and cultural entities in our society, and a law like this kills off a class of entity.
biafra 12y ago
It might be illegal in _your_ country. But AFAIK reverse engineering or installing custom software on a device I bought is not illegal in Germany. Probably in most countries.
- psykovsky 12y ago
  Motorola tried to tell me my phone warranty was off because I requested the bootloader unlock code from their site. Well, they're wrong. They cannot do that. It's illegal. I have every right to unlock my phone. Europe really is different from the USA.
  - leni536 12y ago
    Something voiding the warranty or being illegal is quite different matter though. I'm pretty sure that disassembling your phone voids your warranty but I would be surprised if it was illegal.
    - kuschku 12y ago
      Disassembling your phone only voids the warranty on the overall device, not on the individual parts. Also changing the software does not void the warranty of the hardware. Also if a contract contains a clause forbidding you to disassemble, decompile, or debug something, then the clause is automatically void. Yay for EU rights.
      - psykovsky 12y ago
        Exactly. Doesn't matter what Motorola says. The Terms they made me "read" and "agree" upon are void because they go against the law. I'm free to get rid of the Motorola software on my phone and replace it without voiding the 24 months warranty on my phone.
  - arrrg 12y ago
    Warranties can be tied to limitations and restrictions the manufacturers make up. (There probably are some limitations to that to do with contract law. It surely is quite complicated, but voiding your warranty by unlocking your device doesn’t seem unreasonable to me.) Warranties are voluntary and distinct from seller liability for defects in the product. That liability is legally required in the EU. The details of the implementation are different in different countries. In Germany it’s like this: The seller (and only the seller) is liable and you have to go to the seller to make a liability claim. So if you bought your phone from Amazon you have to write Amazon, not Motorola. If you bought it from a carrier you have to go to the carrier. If you didn’t buy the phone directly from the manufacturer that manufacturer doesn’t have to do anything when you come to them with a defect phone. It’s the seller’s problem. (This is mostly to prevent a runaround, where seller and manufacturer both tell you each other is responsible for fixing the problem. This creates one entity that is clearly and obviously responsible and has to handle the problem.) It’s for defects present when the device was sold and that’s it. (However, subsequent defects of some component because the device was delivered with some faulty or not up to spec components count, too.) In the first six months the seller has to prove the defect wasn’t present when the device was delivered to not be liable. You, the buyer, don’t have to prove anything. That burden of proof, however, reverses after six months and up to 24 months (then there is no more liability), making it very hard in practice for buyers to prove after those six months that the defect was there when the device was sold. (However, courts have relaxed the requirements for that. Buyers usually don’t need to get some expensive expert opinion or something like that. If you can make a very good and informed argument for your case you should usually be covered.) The seller can repair or replace the device. Buyers don’t have right to get their device replaced when it’s possible to repair it. If repairing and replacing fails a number of times (I think three) the buyer can demand their money back. That’s the liability. A legal requirement and very complicated – and also wholly distinct from warranties. By unlocking your phone you may have voided your warranty, but you certainly didn’t void the legal liability of the seller.
higherpurpose 12y ago
There was an exception against that until about a year ago. Then this year that exception was added back in. http://www.theverge.com/2014/8/1/5959915/president-barack-obama-signing-phone-unlocking-bill http://www.theverge.com/2014/8/1/5959915/president-barack-ob...

xnull2guest 12y ago

I looked it up and am wrong as of 2010 when the Registrar of Copyright of the Library of Congress ruled that, in fact, it was legal to jailbreak iPhones and other smartphones. Apologies, I will remove the comment above.

ajb 12y ago

That was a prediction, not a statement - it's from Stallman's 1997 'right to read' cited above.