4 ms·

You really believe you can fit an eink display, a touch screen digitizer, a microcontroller, bluetooth and nfc on a card that thin and sell it for 155 dollars?

by penprog 12y ago

rtpg 12y ago
I'm pretty sure nfc can be passive, the e-ink display doesn't use energy when not changing, and the "touch screen digitizer" could just be a button that is actually a contact (i.e. most of the time the microcontroller is passive). Also, you could make the card thicker in areas where it doesn't matter (away from the stripe and the PIN
- jrockway 12y ago
  You can't, actually. Consider things like the ATMs that suck in the entire card, or things like Metrocard vending machines that require you to insert the credit card in a slot.
  - rtpg 12y ago
    ah, good point on the ATMs, I stand corrected (imagine this card getting stuck in an ATM, suddenly all your cards are lost)
  - tripzilch 12y ago
    Really good point. I doubt they'll ever[0] be able to put all that tech into a card that's actually as thin as a credit card that fits in an ATM. But if they can do that, I want one, not to pay with, but for the programmable eInk screen with bluetooth connectivity (and touch? get real). Then I'd hook it into my phone, that would somehow detect who is nearby/looking at it, reverse/stalk their social networks, local graph, location/environment context, little bit of magic, cold reading and random guesswork. It would show exactly whatever they wanted/expected to see. I'd have hacked myself a piece of Doctor Who's psychic paper. [0] or at least for a few years :)
  - robin_reala 12y ago
    Cash machines have to deal with raised numerals. You could at least make it as thick as card + raised digits all over.
    - reacocard 12y ago
      Not quite - many ATMs I've seen size the slot so the raised numbers only go in one place so you can't insert the card the wrong way around.
      - robin_reala 12y ago
        Ah, I hadn’t noticed that, will have to have a closer look.
bradfa 12y ago
Yes. If the eInk screen uses the card plastic in place of the glass which usually backs such a screen, it can easily be thin enough for a credit card form factor. Touch screen digitizing can be done resistively with overlaid wires over the screen. Their touch interface doesn't have to be super accurate, you only seem to touch in a few distinct locations. A microcontroller is already inside every chip and pin card on the planet. They usually run Java. Yes, Java :) Bluetooth is just more silicon to do the radio, not hard to stick it on the side of the microcontroller silicon or even have a two-die configuration with wire bonding between the dies. Go look at TI or Freescale 2.4 GHz radio+micro parts, same thing just there it's in a QFN or other solder-down package, but the dies themselves are quite small. A 2.4 GHz antenna is easy to fab out of printed silver or other printable conductive material onto plastic. NFC is already in many credit cards for the whole "tap to pay" thing. It's just some extra silicon on the side of the microcontroller in existing solutions. Harvesting power from NFC is just some diodes and a resonant circuit along with loop antenna. Realistically, such a piece of silicon plus the antennas plus the plastic card should only cost you single digit dollars in volume to manufacture. Adding an eInk screen like that is another couple bucks, at most. The $155 price point is probably so they can make back their up-front costs as getting customized silicon isn't cheap, nor is some of the development work they did to get all the features integrated. If this concept takes off, I'd expect in 2-3 years that cards like this are issued by banks for free to customers. The cost of manufacturing really isn't that high. EDIT: But getting enough battery packed in to avoid charging every day or two, that's really the novel part if they have real bluetooth operation.
- TranquilMarmot 12y ago
  The only part that actually has to be as thin as a credit card is the part with the magnetic strip. Below that (where the screen is), it could be as thick as they need and still be swipeable. So they could shove the battery, charging coils, etc. behind the touch screen.
  - rohansingh 12y ago
    Not the case. For chip-and-PIN cards, the entire part of the card containing the chip needs to be inserted into a reader, as in this example: https://i.imgur.com/0nn5lpo.jpg https://i.imgur.com/0nn5lpo.jpg

You really believe you can fit an eink display, a touch screen digitizer, a microcontroller, bluetooth and nfc on a card that thin and sell it for 155 dollars?

by penprog 12y ago

You really believe you can fit an eink display, a touch screen digitizer, a microcontroller, bluetooth and nfc on a card that thin and sell it for 155 dollars?

rtpg 12y ago

I'm pretty sure nfc can be passive, the e-ink display doesn't use energy when not changing, and the "touch screen digitizer" could just be a button that is actually a contact (i.e. most of the time the microcontroller is passive). Also, you could make the card thicker in areas where it doesn't matter (away from the stripe and the PIN

jrockway 12y ago
You can't, actually. Consider things like the ATMs that suck in the entire card, or things like Metrocard vending machines that require you to insert the credit card in a slot.
- rtpg 12y ago
  ah, good point on the ATMs, I stand corrected (imagine this card getting stuck in an ATM, suddenly all your cards are lost)
- tripzilch 12y ago
  Really good point. I doubt they'll ever[0] be able to put all that tech into a card that's actually as thin as a credit card that fits in an ATM. But if they can do that, I want one, not to pay with, but for the programmable eInk screen with bluetooth connectivity (and touch? get real). Then I'd hook it into my phone, that would somehow detect who is nearby/looking at it, reverse/stalk their social networks, local graph, location/environment context, little bit of magic, cold reading and random guesswork. It would show exactly whatever they wanted/expected to see. I'd have hacked myself a piece of Doctor Who's psychic paper. [0] or at least for a few years :)
- robin_reala 12y ago
  Cash machines have to deal with raised numerals. You could at least make it as thick as card + raised digits all over.
  - reacocard 12y ago
    Not quite - many ATMs I've seen size the slot so the raised numbers only go in one place so you can't insert the card the wrong way around.
    - robin_reala 12y ago
      Ah, I hadn’t noticed that, will have to have a closer look.

bradfa 12y ago

Yes. If the eInk screen uses the card plastic in place of the glass which usually backs such a screen, it can easily be thin enough for a credit card form factor. Touch screen digitizing can be done resistively with overlaid wires over the screen. Their touch interface doesn't have to be super accurate, you only seem to touch in a few distinct locations. A microcontroller is already inside every chip and pin card on the planet. They usually run Java. Yes, Java :) Bluetooth is just more silicon to do the radio, not hard to stick it on the side of the microcontroller silicon or even have a two-die configuration with wire bonding between the dies. Go look at TI or Freescale 2.4 GHz radio+micro parts, same thing just there it's in a QFN or other solder-down package, but the dies themselves are quite small. A 2.4 GHz antenna is easy to fab out of printed silver or other printable conductive material onto plastic. NFC is already in many credit cards for the whole "tap to pay" thing. It's just some extra silicon on the side of the microcontroller in existing solutions. Harvesting power from NFC is just some diodes and a resonant circuit along with loop antenna. Realistically, such a piece of silicon plus the antennas plus the plastic card should only cost you single digit dollars in volume to manufacture. Adding an eInk screen like that is another couple bucks, at most. The $155 price point is probably so they can make back their up-front costs as getting customized silicon isn't cheap, nor is some of the development work they did to get all the features integrated. If this concept takes off, I'd expect in 2-3 years that cards like this are issued by banks for free to customers. The cost of manufacturing really isn't that high. EDIT: But getting enough battery packed in to avoid charging every day or two, that's really the novel part if they have real bluetooth operation.

TranquilMarmot 12y ago
The only part that actually has to be as thin as a credit card is the part with the magnetic strip. Below that (where the screen is), it could be as thick as they need and still be swipeable. So they could shove the battery, charging coils, etc. behind the touch screen.
- rohansingh 12y ago
  Not the case. For chip-and-PIN cards, the entire part of the card containing the chip needs to be inserted into a reader, as in this example: https://i.imgur.com/0nn5lpo.jpg https://i.imgur.com/0nn5lpo.jpg