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There's pretty near unanimous support among people who care about the issue at all. Startups that have immigration problems mostly would like such an option.

by pg 17y ago

There's pretty near unanimous support among people who care about the issue at all. Startups that have immigration problems mostly would like such an option. And to those that don't, what difference would it make if another few thousand (mostly smart) immigrants were allowed to come to the US?

tptacek 17y ago
I'm with bokonist on this: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=556908 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=556908 Particularly this comment: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=557298 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=557298 bokonist's comments on this thread were incredibly good. I get the sense that I'm nowhere near him on the political spectrum, but I couldn't stop reading what he had to say about this and found him very persuasive.
- pg 17y ago
  It's true that if the government implemented such a program, they'd probably do a bad job. But they couldn't do worse than they're doing now, which is to turn people away at the borders. If the strongest argument you can make against a proposed government policy is one that you could make against any government policy, then it's pretty good, as proposals for government policies go. I agree that by default the government does things badly, and that the government ought therefore to do as little as possible. But immigration policy is an area where they're already acting, and going to continue to act. So it's reasonable to propose ways to act more intelligently.
  - tptacek 17y ago
    bokonist even concedes that your proposal could be beneficial in the short term. It's what it does in the medium-long term that concerns him. So, I think the Founders Visa is bad policy. You asked, there's my response. That aside, I'm with sachinag. This issue is a red herring. If we want to foster startups in the US, we should start by addressing barriers that face US citizens: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=832480 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=832480
    - pg 17y ago
      Red Herring implies deliberately misleading. It would be more accurate to describe it as one thread in an intrinsically parallel process.
      - tptacek 17y ago
        Let it suffice to say that I didn't intend to accuse you of misleading anybody.
  - runningriot 17y ago
    It's true that if the government implemented such a program, they'd probably do a bad job. But they couldn't do worse than they're doing now, which is to turn people away at the borders. pg, you already said basically the same thing in the thread tptacek linked to: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=557340 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=557340 A response follows in that thread.
runningriot 17y ago
There's pretty near unanimous support among people who care about the issue at all. pg, this is absolutely false. Maybe you haven't been reading all of the recent HN threads on this issue, but the highest-rated comments tend to oppose founder's visas. what difference would it make if another few thousand (mostly smart) immigrants were allowed to come to the US? Multiple people have pointed out that a founder's visa program would have larger ramifications, and you've replied to at least one of them so you must have seen answers to this question.
- pg 17y ago
  Incidentally, why do you keep creating new accounts?
  - runningriot 17y ago
    I don't. My colleagues post on HN and we probably have the same external IP address. If you don't believe me, I will stop posting if you just ask. However, I don't see why you need to assume my guilt. I wonder if you still would have done that if I'd agreed with you earlier instead of disagreeing.
    - pg 17y ago
      I was actually just curious. Usually when people create new accounts, it's because they want to say something they don't want associated with their main account. A few others do it to vote up their own comments. But neither seemed to be the case here. The reason I thought you weren't a new user was that you used HN's idiosyncratic markdown subset on your first comment. That's very rare. But if you say you're different people, I'll take your word for it.
      - runningriot 17y ago
        I see. Yes, I've been familiar with HN for a long time, partly because I've seen so many people post here.
- 17y ago
jhancock 17y ago
I'm not hearing unanimous support. I am disappointed that investors that openly support a founder visa have not published a pitch on par with what they expect from founders pitching to them. You guys should be able to write better pitches than anyone, right? You have access to the best data, right? I don't think anyone expects your first essay that brought this issue to light to be anything more than an essay. It was well written and I agree with the general idea. But that's not enough to "fund" the deal. Where is the hard data on these assertions that investors are missing out and if they had access to founders visas, what the return would be to the economy. When it comes to IT startups, I think its a tough hurdle to show there would be net job creation. Its my understanding that most IT value propositions, if achieved, result in a net reduction of labor. I know that at least one aspect of the value proposition for every IT project I've ever worked on in 20 years was to reduce labor costs. This was true from $250M enterprise projects to $50K bootstrapped ones. Although I'm not hearing unanimous support for the founders visa, those that are questioning it do seem to be pro-immigration in general. So if there is a stir in these quarters, what happens when this issue gets in front of Americans that think building a wall covering the entire Mexican border is a smart and achievable goal?
fnid 17y ago
There's pretty near unanimous support among people who care about the issue at all. It's extremely illogical to equate not supporting the founder visa to not caring at all about the issue. I care about the issue and I don't support a founder visa. There are plenty more as well.

by pg 17y ago

tptacek 17y ago

I'm with bokonist on this: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=556908 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=556908 Particularly this comment: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=557298 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=557298 bokonist's comments on this thread were incredibly good. I get the sense that I'm nowhere near him on the political spectrum, but I couldn't stop reading what he had to say about this and found him very persuasive.

pg 17y ago
It's true that if the government implemented such a program, they'd probably do a bad job. But they couldn't do worse than they're doing now, which is to turn people away at the borders. If the strongest argument you can make against a proposed government policy is one that you could make against any government policy, then it's pretty good, as proposals for government policies go. I agree that by default the government does things badly, and that the government ought therefore to do as little as possible. But immigration policy is an area where they're already acting, and going to continue to act. So it's reasonable to propose ways to act more intelligently.
- tptacek 17y ago
  bokonist even concedes that your proposal could be beneficial in the short term. It's what it does in the medium-long term that concerns him. So, I think the Founders Visa is bad policy. You asked, there's my response. That aside, I'm with sachinag. This issue is a red herring. If we want to foster startups in the US, we should start by addressing barriers that face US citizens: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=832480 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=832480
  - pg 17y ago
    Red Herring implies deliberately misleading. It would be more accurate to describe it as one thread in an intrinsically parallel process.
    - tptacek 17y ago
      Let it suffice to say that I didn't intend to accuse you of misleading anybody.
- runningriot 17y ago
  It's true that if the government implemented such a program, they'd probably do a bad job. But they couldn't do worse than they're doing now, which is to turn people away at the borders. pg, you already said basically the same thing in the thread tptacek linked to: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=557340 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=557340 A response follows in that thread.

runningriot 17y ago

There's pretty near unanimous support among people who care about the issue at all. pg, this is absolutely false. Maybe you haven't been reading all of the recent HN threads on this issue, but the highest-rated comments tend to oppose founder's visas. what difference would it make if another few thousand (mostly smart) immigrants were allowed to come to the US? Multiple people have pointed out that a founder's visa program would have larger ramifications, and you've replied to at least one of them so you must have seen answers to this question.

pg 17y ago
Incidentally, why do you keep creating new accounts?
- runningriot 17y ago
  I don't. My colleagues post on HN and we probably have the same external IP address. If you don't believe me, I will stop posting if you just ask. However, I don't see why you need to assume my guilt. I wonder if you still would have done that if I'd agreed with you earlier instead of disagreeing.
  - pg 17y ago
    I was actually just curious. Usually when people create new accounts, it's because they want to say something they don't want associated with their main account. A few others do it to vote up their own comments. But neither seemed to be the case here. The reason I thought you weren't a new user was that you used HN's idiosyncratic markdown subset on your first comment. That's very rare. But if you say you're different people, I'll take your word for it.
    - runningriot 17y ago
      I see. Yes, I've been familiar with HN for a long time, partly because I've seen so many people post here.
17y ago

jhancock 17y ago

I'm not hearing unanimous support. I am disappointed that investors that openly support a founder visa have not published a pitch on par with what they expect from founders pitching to them. You guys should be able to write better pitches than anyone, right? You have access to the best data, right? I don't think anyone expects your first essay that brought this issue to light to be anything more than an essay. It was well written and I agree with the general idea. But that's not enough to "fund" the deal. Where is the hard data on these assertions that investors are missing out and if they had access to founders visas, what the return would be to the economy. When it comes to IT startups, I think its a tough hurdle to show there would be net job creation. Its my understanding that most IT value propositions, if achieved, result in a net reduction of labor. I know that at least one aspect of the value proposition for every IT project I've ever worked on in 20 years was to reduce labor costs. This was true from $250M enterprise projects to $50K bootstrapped ones. Although I'm not hearing unanimous support for the founders visa, those that are questioning it do seem to be pro-immigration in general. So if there is a stir in these quarters, what happens when this issue gets in front of Americans that think building a wall covering the entire Mexican border is a smart and achievable goal?

fnid 17y ago

There's pretty near unanimous support among people who care about the issue at all. It's extremely illogical to equate not supporting the founder visa to not caring at all about the issue. I care about the issue and I don't support a founder visa. There are plenty more as well.