4 ms·

Important difference: Plastic supports Chip & Pin, Coin does not. Plastic: https://www.plastc.com/card#tech-specs https://www.plastc.com/card#tech-specs Coin:

Important difference: Plastic supports Chip & Pin, Coin does not. Plastic: https://www.plastc.com/card#tech-specs https://www.plastc.com/card#tech-specs Coin: https://onlycoin.com/support/faq/#security https://onlycoin.com/support/faq/#security

seanmccann 12y ago
Which is increasingly important because that "far date in the future" of October 1, 2015 in less than 12 months away. On October 1, 2015 "Liability will shift to acquirers for domestic and cross-border counterfeit fraud card-present POS transactions if the merchant does not have an EMV-enabled POS device." Over the next year nearly all merchants will switch over.
robbiet480 12y ago
Plastc also supports NFC
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
- bravo22 12y ago
  I'm calling shenanigans after reading their specs. Here are my reasons: NFC + EMV secure elements are issued by banks and can't be reprogrammed. You can't switch between them on the fly. You can only house "multiple" EMVs if you can by some grace of god magic convince the different banks, and Amex to take your card to their facility and program it with their secure info and then give it back to you. E-ink displays are WAY thicker than they can fit in there. They are also made on GLASS substrate, much more fragile than something you want to put in your pocket. If you looks closely at the video the e-ink screen is faked by CGI. It doesn't perfectly register in the same location on every frame. There is a shake. Driving an e-ink display requires high bias voltage, ~+/-20V. Often done via charge pumps with chips such as TI's TPS65180 (http://www.ti.com/product/tps65180 http://www.ti.com/product/tps65180). The chip alone (minus PCB) is thicker than a credit card and therefore a credit card slot. The switching capacitors you'd need to generate the voltage would also be too big to fit within that footprint.
  - jrockway 12y ago
    There are several variants on the NFC protocol. Some contain secure elements (with a CVV3, which is a cryptographically-signed incrementing number), but I believe they can also just dumbly-send the normal card data over the air. I've also seen credit cards made from glass. I think they're NFC-only, though, because of the thickness, but I could be mistaken.
    - bravo22 12y ago
      You are correct in that the NFC is just a protocol but for it to be used without a signature you need a secure element. In their "mock-up" they show a smart car interface on the front and in the FAQ they claim EMV. It is very puzzling.
    - objclxt 12y ago
      > I believe they can also just dumbly-send the normal card data over the air. Only while the US still is supporting that. Once the liability shift occurs next year it'll be EMV or nothing.
  - dmitrygr 12y ago
    Now I think this is a difficult-to-implement idea too, but not for the reasons you mentioned 1. eink can be made on flexible plastic and be very thin, and cheap too (see http://www.engadget.com/2008/09/08/esquires-e-ink-infused-magazine-cover-shown-on-video/ http://www.engadget.com/2008/09/08/esquires-e-ink-infused-ma...) 2. charge pumps can be made out of discrete components and the largest part is a coil, which can easily be laid flat and thin. You can also charge a ceramic cap (low self discharge) slowly and use it when you need to change screen contents, thus allowing you to have a smaller charge pump yet 3. PCBs can be made very thin (a cheap pcb fab I use will make 10 PCBs for $10 for me at 0.2mm thickness). And you can also make them on a flexcable that is thinner yet. You are right about EMV though. It is supposed to be uncloneable.
    - bravo22 12y ago
      1. With respect to e-ink on a flexible substrate... it was announced but I've never seen it happen. I've dealt with e-ink fairly recently on two projects. They don't have a flexible design to sell you beyond prototype. and for custom sizes Their MOQ to begin exploring a custom option is 100K units. 2. There is no coil in a charge pump :). They use capacitors and switches. There is no inductor. For a charge pump to drive an eink like screen you need caps of about 10-20uF. I've designed about 3 different boards that drive high-res e-ink screens. You can't get those caps below 1mm at the very best. 3. Are you sure you are getting 0.2mm PCBs? That is only 8mils thick! Most standard PCBs are 62 mils ~ 1.5mm. Can you tell me who these guys are that would do super thin at prototype prices? I would want to use them (no sarcasm). Minimum IPC thickness for 4 layer board (which is what you need for the EPSON driver to those e-inks) is 12 mils but even at that you'll have mechanical problems with that PCB. Credit card thickness FYI is 30 mils = 0.030". What I would say to these guys is: "show me a prototype with the appropriate thickness. You have a prototype, right?"
guan 12y ago
How they will support chip and PIN? Will they need cooperation from the issuer? If not, then they need to clone the cryptographic keys inside the chip, and I thought those were supposed to be tamper resistant.
jrockway 12y ago
I doubt that it actually supports Chip & Pin; it probably supports the kind where your card number can be read via those contacts, but still requires your signature to complete the transaction. Another option is just proxying your card; their card has a valid chip & pin and credit card number, and when they process the charge, they pay for it by charging your actual card. If I recall correctly, the credit card companies don't particularly like this, but maybe things have changed recently.

seanmccann 12y ago

Which is increasingly important because that "far date in the future" of October 1, 2015 in less than 12 months away. On October 1, 2015 "Liability will shift to acquirers for domestic and cross-border counterfeit fraud card-present POS transactions if the merchant does not have an EMV-enabled POS device." Over the next year nearly all merchants will switch over.

robbiet480 12y ago

Plastc also supports NFC

deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
bravo22 12y ago
I'm calling shenanigans after reading their specs. Here are my reasons: NFC + EMV secure elements are issued by banks and can't be reprogrammed. You can't switch between them on the fly. You can only house "multiple" EMVs if you can by some grace of god magic convince the different banks, and Amex to take your card to their facility and program it with their secure info and then give it back to you. E-ink displays are WAY thicker than they can fit in there. They are also made on GLASS substrate, much more fragile than something you want to put in your pocket. If you looks closely at the video the e-ink screen is faked by CGI. It doesn't perfectly register in the same location on every frame. There is a shake. Driving an e-ink display requires high bias voltage, ~+/-20V. Often done via charge pumps with chips such as TI's TPS65180 (http://www.ti.com/product/tps65180 http://www.ti.com/product/tps65180). The chip alone (minus PCB) is thicker than a credit card and therefore a credit card slot. The switching capacitors you'd need to generate the voltage would also be too big to fit within that footprint.
- jrockway 12y ago
  There are several variants on the NFC protocol. Some contain secure elements (with a CVV3, which is a cryptographically-signed incrementing number), but I believe they can also just dumbly-send the normal card data over the air. I've also seen credit cards made from glass. I think they're NFC-only, though, because of the thickness, but I could be mistaken.
  - bravo22 12y ago
    You are correct in that the NFC is just a protocol but for it to be used without a signature you need a secure element. In their "mock-up" they show a smart car interface on the front and in the FAQ they claim EMV. It is very puzzling.
  - objclxt 12y ago
    > I believe they can also just dumbly-send the normal card data over the air. Only while the US still is supporting that. Once the liability shift occurs next year it'll be EMV or nothing.
- dmitrygr 12y ago
  Now I think this is a difficult-to-implement idea too, but not for the reasons you mentioned 1. eink can be made on flexible plastic and be very thin, and cheap too (see http://www.engadget.com/2008/09/08/esquires-e-ink-infused-magazine-cover-shown-on-video/ http://www.engadget.com/2008/09/08/esquires-e-ink-infused-ma...) 2. charge pumps can be made out of discrete components and the largest part is a coil, which can easily be laid flat and thin. You can also charge a ceramic cap (low self discharge) slowly and use it when you need to change screen contents, thus allowing you to have a smaller charge pump yet 3. PCBs can be made very thin (a cheap pcb fab I use will make 10 PCBs for $10 for me at 0.2mm thickness). And you can also make them on a flexcable that is thinner yet. You are right about EMV though. It is supposed to be uncloneable.
  - bravo22 12y ago
    1. With respect to e-ink on a flexible substrate... it was announced but I've never seen it happen. I've dealt with e-ink fairly recently on two projects. They don't have a flexible design to sell you beyond prototype. and for custom sizes Their MOQ to begin exploring a custom option is 100K units. 2. There is no coil in a charge pump :). They use capacitors and switches. There is no inductor. For a charge pump to drive an eink like screen you need caps of about 10-20uF. I've designed about 3 different boards that drive high-res e-ink screens. You can't get those caps below 1mm at the very best. 3. Are you sure you are getting 0.2mm PCBs? That is only 8mils thick! Most standard PCBs are 62 mils ~ 1.5mm. Can you tell me who these guys are that would do super thin at prototype prices? I would want to use them (no sarcasm). Minimum IPC thickness for 4 layer board (which is what you need for the EPSON driver to those e-inks) is 12 mils but even at that you'll have mechanical problems with that PCB. Credit card thickness FYI is 30 mils = 0.030". What I would say to these guys is: "show me a prototype with the appropriate thickness. You have a prototype, right?"

guan 12y ago

How they will support chip and PIN? Will they need cooperation from the issuer? If not, then they need to clone the cryptographic keys inside the chip, and I thought those were supposed to be tamper resistant.

jrockway 12y ago

I doubt that it actually supports Chip & Pin; it probably supports the kind where your card number can be read via those contacts, but still requires your signature to complete the transaction. Another option is just proxying your card; their card has a valid chip & pin and credit card number, and when they process the charge, they pay for it by charging your actual card. If I recall correctly, the credit card companies don't particularly like this, but maybe things have changed recently.