6 ms·

Wow, this will certainly give Coin (https://onlycoin.com/ https://onlycoin.com/) a run for their money.

lost_name 12y ago
Important difference: Plastic supports Chip & Pin, Coin does not. Plastic: https://www.plastc.com/card#tech-specs https://www.plastc.com/card#tech-specs Coin: https://onlycoin.com/support/faq/#security https://onlycoin.com/support/faq/#security
- seanmccann 12y ago
  Which is increasingly important because that "far date in the future" of October 1, 2015 in less than 12 months away. On October 1, 2015 "Liability will shift to acquirers for domestic and cross-border counterfeit fraud card-present POS transactions if the merchant does not have an EMV-enabled POS device." Over the next year nearly all merchants will switch over.
- robbiet480 12y ago
  Plastc also supports NFC
  - deleted 12y ago
    [deleted]
  - bravo22 12y ago
    I'm calling shenanigans after reading their specs. Here are my reasons: NFC + EMV secure elements are issued by banks and can't be reprogrammed. You can't switch between them on the fly. You can only house "multiple" EMVs if you can by some grace of god magic convince the different banks, and Amex to take your card to their facility and program it with their secure info and then give it back to you. E-ink displays are WAY thicker than they can fit in there. They are also made on GLASS substrate, much more fragile than something you want to put in your pocket. If you looks closely at the video the e-ink screen is faked by CGI. It doesn't perfectly register in the same location on every frame. There is a shake. Driving an e-ink display requires high bias voltage, ~+/-20V. Often done via charge pumps with chips such as TI's TPS65180 (http://www.ti.com/product/tps65180 http://www.ti.com/product/tps65180). The chip alone (minus PCB) is thicker than a credit card and therefore a credit card slot. The switching capacitors you'd need to generate the voltage would also be too big to fit within that footprint.
    - jrockway 12y ago
      There are several variants on the NFC protocol. Some contain secure elements (with a CVV3, which is a cryptographically-signed incrementing number), but I believe they can also just dumbly-send the normal card data over the air. I've also seen credit cards made from glass. I think they're NFC-only, though, because of the thickness, but I could be mistaken.
      - bravo22 12y ago
        You are correct in that the NFC is just a protocol but for it to be used without a signature you need a secure element. In their "mock-up" they show a smart car interface on the front and in the FAQ they claim EMV. It is very puzzling.
      - objclxt 12y ago
        > I believe they can also just dumbly-send the normal card data over the air. Only while the US still is supporting that. Once the liability shift occurs next year it'll be EMV or nothing.
    - dmitrygr 12y ago
      Now I think this is a difficult-to-implement idea too, but not for the reasons you mentioned 1. eink can be made on flexible plastic and be very thin, and cheap too (see http://www.engadget.com/2008/09/08/esquires-e-ink-infused-magazine-cover-shown-on-video/ http://www.engadget.com/2008/09/08/esquires-e-ink-infused-ma...) 2. charge pumps can be made out of discrete components and the largest part is a coil, which can easily be laid flat and thin. You can also charge a ceramic cap (low self discharge) slowly and use it when you need to change screen contents, thus allowing you to have a smaller charge pump yet 3. PCBs can be made very thin (a cheap pcb fab I use will make 10 PCBs for $10 for me at 0.2mm thickness). And you can also make them on a flexcable that is thinner yet. You are right about EMV though. It is supposed to be uncloneable.
      - bravo22 12y ago
        1. With respect to e-ink on a flexible substrate... it was announced but I've never seen it happen. I've dealt with e-ink fairly recently on two projects. They don't have a flexible design to sell you beyond prototype. and for custom sizes Their MOQ to begin exploring a custom option is 100K units. 2. There is no coil in a charge pump :). They use capacitors and switches. There is no inductor. For a charge pump to drive an eink like screen you need caps of about 10-20uF. I've designed about 3 different boards that drive high-res e-ink screens. You can't get those caps below 1mm at the very best. 3. Are you sure you are getting 0.2mm PCBs? That is only 8mils thick! Most standard PCBs are 62 mils ~ 1.5mm. Can you tell me who these guys are that would do super thin at prototype prices? I would want to use them (no sarcasm). Minimum IPC thickness for 4 layer board (which is what you need for the EPSON driver to those e-inks) is 12 mils but even at that you'll have mechanical problems with that PCB. Credit card thickness FYI is 30 mils = 0.030". What I would say to these guys is: "show me a prototype with the appropriate thickness. You have a prototype, right?"
- guan 12y ago
  How they will support chip and PIN? Will they need cooperation from the issuer? If not, then they need to clone the cryptographic keys inside the chip, and I thought those were supposed to be tamper resistant.
- jrockway 12y ago
  I doubt that it actually supports Chip & Pin; it probably supports the kind where your card number can be read via those contacts, but still requires your signature to complete the transaction. Another option is just proxying your card; their card has a valid chip & pin and credit card number, and when they process the charge, they pay for it by charging your actual card. If I recall correctly, the credit card companies don't particularly like this, but maybe things have changed recently.
sbenario 12y ago
I think the real question is who is more likely to ship an actual product.
- poonjahb 12y ago
  My question is whether these are the same people that came up with coin and this is simply another ploy to get people's money for a product that will never make it to market. Both domains are private registrations from GoDaddy. If either was a genuine corporate entity you would think they would have real information in their domain registration.
brentm 12y ago
I can't help to think this and Coin are each a solution in search of a problem. Do you know many people that use more than 3 cards regularly? If the norm was to have so many cards they barely fit in your wallet this would be perfect.
- slantyyz 12y ago
  >> Do you know many people that use more than 3 cards regularly? It's not so much about use as it is about carry. I may use only 3 cards regularly, but I carry 13 in my wallet. Most of the lesser used cards are ID I have little choice but to carry or loyalty cards for places where I shop. _IF_ the claims about chip and pin capability are true, I'd be able to pull out at least half of the cards in my wallet, which would be a significant amount of bulk.
- kerkeslager 12y ago
  If it were just credit/debit cards, I'd agree with you, but this purports to support gift cards. I've had too many gift cards to carry around, and ended up not using them because when I was actually in the store they were at home. So I do think it does solve a problem. That said, the problem this solves isn't important enough to justify the price tag (for me).
- kstrauser 12y ago
  It claims to support RFID, so I wouldn't have to carry my work door card. I'd strongly consider that.
  - slyhacked 12y ago
    Would your work let you put your details in a phone to be synced to a device like this? Plus most door cards are 125Khz and NFC/credit cards etc use 13.5Mhz so I wouldn't expect it to be compatible.
- atourgates 12y ago
  Well - I carry 3, and would carry 7 if I wasn't trying to slim down my wallet. Those 3 are: * An personal AMEX cashback card, that gives me a very nice 5% back in certain categories, and 1% back on everything else. * A Visa Airline miles card, for places that don't take AMEX or travel spending where I earn 2x or more miles. * A business Visa credit card for the business my wife owns. The other cards I'd carry if I wasn't annoyed by a thick wallet are: * A Costco AMEX that gives me extra cashback at Costco. * A couple store-specific Visa cards that give me nice benefits at stores where I shop at least semi-regularly. * A work credit card for my work. I'm a bit of a miles/cashback junkie, but I'll bet many people have at least a few cards they'd like to consolodate. The average American family has 8. Like I said in another comment, I'd be thrilled if I could replace all those with one card, and I'd be happy to pay what Plastc is asking if it worked. But the most likely scenario I see for that happening is mobile payments a'la ApplePay.

Important difference: Plastic supports Chip & Pin, Coin does not. Plastic: https://www.plastc.com/card#tech-specs https://www.plastc.com/card#tech-specs Coin: https://onlycoin.com/support/faq/#security https://onlycoin.com/support/faq/#security

seanmccann 12y ago
Which is increasingly important because that "far date in the future" of October 1, 2015 in less than 12 months away. On October 1, 2015 "Liability will shift to acquirers for domestic and cross-border counterfeit fraud card-present POS transactions if the merchant does not have an EMV-enabled POS device." Over the next year nearly all merchants will switch over.
robbiet480 12y ago
Plastc also supports NFC
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
- bravo22 12y ago
  I'm calling shenanigans after reading their specs. Here are my reasons: NFC + EMV secure elements are issued by banks and can't be reprogrammed. You can't switch between them on the fly. You can only house "multiple" EMVs if you can by some grace of god magic convince the different banks, and Amex to take your card to their facility and program it with their secure info and then give it back to you. E-ink displays are WAY thicker than they can fit in there. They are also made on GLASS substrate, much more fragile than something you want to put in your pocket. If you looks closely at the video the e-ink screen is faked by CGI. It doesn't perfectly register in the same location on every frame. There is a shake. Driving an e-ink display requires high bias voltage, ~+/-20V. Often done via charge pumps with chips such as TI's TPS65180 (http://www.ti.com/product/tps65180 http://www.ti.com/product/tps65180). The chip alone (minus PCB) is thicker than a credit card and therefore a credit card slot. The switching capacitors you'd need to generate the voltage would also be too big to fit within that footprint.
  - jrockway 12y ago
    There are several variants on the NFC protocol. Some contain secure elements (with a CVV3, which is a cryptographically-signed incrementing number), but I believe they can also just dumbly-send the normal card data over the air. I've also seen credit cards made from glass. I think they're NFC-only, though, because of the thickness, but I could be mistaken.
    - bravo22 12y ago
      You are correct in that the NFC is just a protocol but for it to be used without a signature you need a secure element. In their "mock-up" they show a smart car interface on the front and in the FAQ they claim EMV. It is very puzzling.
    - objclxt 12y ago
      > I believe they can also just dumbly-send the normal card data over the air. Only while the US still is supporting that. Once the liability shift occurs next year it'll be EMV or nothing.
  - dmitrygr 12y ago
    Now I think this is a difficult-to-implement idea too, but not for the reasons you mentioned 1. eink can be made on flexible plastic and be very thin, and cheap too (see http://www.engadget.com/2008/09/08/esquires-e-ink-infused-magazine-cover-shown-on-video/ http://www.engadget.com/2008/09/08/esquires-e-ink-infused-ma...) 2. charge pumps can be made out of discrete components and the largest part is a coil, which can easily be laid flat and thin. You can also charge a ceramic cap (low self discharge) slowly and use it when you need to change screen contents, thus allowing you to have a smaller charge pump yet 3. PCBs can be made very thin (a cheap pcb fab I use will make 10 PCBs for $10 for me at 0.2mm thickness). And you can also make them on a flexcable that is thinner yet. You are right about EMV though. It is supposed to be uncloneable.
    - bravo22 12y ago
      1. With respect to e-ink on a flexible substrate... it was announced but I've never seen it happen. I've dealt with e-ink fairly recently on two projects. They don't have a flexible design to sell you beyond prototype. and for custom sizes Their MOQ to begin exploring a custom option is 100K units. 2. There is no coil in a charge pump :). They use capacitors and switches. There is no inductor. For a charge pump to drive an eink like screen you need caps of about 10-20uF. I've designed about 3 different boards that drive high-res e-ink screens. You can't get those caps below 1mm at the very best. 3. Are you sure you are getting 0.2mm PCBs? That is only 8mils thick! Most standard PCBs are 62 mils ~ 1.5mm. Can you tell me who these guys are that would do super thin at prototype prices? I would want to use them (no sarcasm). Minimum IPC thickness for 4 layer board (which is what you need for the EPSON driver to those e-inks) is 12 mils but even at that you'll have mechanical problems with that PCB. Credit card thickness FYI is 30 mils = 0.030". What I would say to these guys is: "show me a prototype with the appropriate thickness. You have a prototype, right?"
guan 12y ago
How they will support chip and PIN? Will they need cooperation from the issuer? If not, then they need to clone the cryptographic keys inside the chip, and I thought those were supposed to be tamper resistant.
jrockway 12y ago
I doubt that it actually supports Chip & Pin; it probably supports the kind where your card number can be read via those contacts, but still requires your signature to complete the transaction. Another option is just proxying your card; their card has a valid chip & pin and credit card number, and when they process the charge, they pay for it by charging your actual card. If I recall correctly, the credit card companies don't particularly like this, but maybe things have changed recently.

sbenario 12y ago

I think the real question is who is more likely to ship an actual product.

poonjahb 12y ago
My question is whether these are the same people that came up with coin and this is simply another ploy to get people's money for a product that will never make it to market. Both domains are private registrations from GoDaddy. If either was a genuine corporate entity you would think they would have real information in their domain registration.

brentm 12y ago

I can't help to think this and Coin are each a solution in search of a problem. Do you know many people that use more than 3 cards regularly? If the norm was to have so many cards they barely fit in your wallet this would be perfect.

slantyyz 12y ago
>> Do you know many people that use more than 3 cards regularly? It's not so much about use as it is about carry. I may use only 3 cards regularly, but I carry 13 in my wallet. Most of the lesser used cards are ID I have little choice but to carry or loyalty cards for places where I shop. _IF_ the claims about chip and pin capability are true, I'd be able to pull out at least half of the cards in my wallet, which would be a significant amount of bulk.
kerkeslager 12y ago
If it were just credit/debit cards, I'd agree with you, but this purports to support gift cards. I've had too many gift cards to carry around, and ended up not using them because when I was actually in the store they were at home. So I do think it does solve a problem. That said, the problem this solves isn't important enough to justify the price tag (for me).
kstrauser 12y ago
It claims to support RFID, so I wouldn't have to carry my work door card. I'd strongly consider that.
- slyhacked 12y ago
  Would your work let you put your details in a phone to be synced to a device like this? Plus most door cards are 125Khz and NFC/credit cards etc use 13.5Mhz so I wouldn't expect it to be compatible.
atourgates 12y ago
Well - I carry 3, and would carry 7 if I wasn't trying to slim down my wallet. Those 3 are: * An personal AMEX cashback card, that gives me a very nice 5% back in certain categories, and 1% back on everything else. * A Visa Airline miles card, for places that don't take AMEX or travel spending where I earn 2x or more miles. * A business Visa credit card for the business my wife owns. The other cards I'd carry if I wasn't annoyed by a thick wallet are: * A Costco AMEX that gives me extra cashback at Costco. * A couple store-specific Visa cards that give me nice benefits at stores where I shop at least semi-regularly. * A work credit card for my work. I'm a bit of a miles/cashback junkie, but I'll bet many people have at least a few cards they'd like to consolodate. The average American family has 8. Like I said in another comment, I'd be thrilled if I could replace all those with one card, and I'd be happy to pay what Plastc is asking if it worked. But the most likely scenario I see for that happening is mobile payments a'la ApplePay.