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> Read about Phil Ivey, who used a similar "hack" to advantage play in Baccarat. So - the slight difference there, and I'm curious whether people see this as a

> Read about Phil Ivey, who used a similar "hack" to advantage play in Baccarat. So - the slight difference there, and I'm curious whether people see this as a difference without a distinction, but Phil Ivey requested the casino to set up a scenario that would allow him to "hack" and then lied about the reasoning for doing so. He claimed that he was "superstitious" and that's why he wanted the exact cards and shuffling machine that would allow him to win. It's not as though he happened on this by accident and simply allowed the casino to continue making a mistake, he arranged the scenario and misrepresented his intentions in doing so. Personally, I think if you have to lie in order to take advantage of a vendor error, your moral highground starts to crumble beneath your feet.

lrm242 12y ago
There is no moral high ground in gambling. The house has the edge, and has designed it to be so. Phil Ivey is a smart gambler and knew how to shift the odds into his favor without cheating. He requested specific things, such as a specific flavor of deck that came from the casino itself and a mandarin speaking dealer. The casino agreed to these requests because it wanted Phil to play. They could have said no. Phil Ivey's edge sorting hack is phenomenal. That the casino thinks they should be insulated from smart players is unfortunate but it is their prerogative to refuse play. However, it absolutely should NOT be possible to claw back winnings from players who were NOT cheating, only playing smartly.
- mattzito 12y ago
  ...but he lied. If they had said, "Hey, why do you want this?" and he said, "I think I've got a system for beating baccarat", and they went ahead anyway, they're idiots. But they asked and he said that he was just superstitious, it was for luck. At that point he was being disingenuous. Was it legal? Probably, I'm not a lawyer. Was it ethical? I'm leaning towards no.
  - CDRdude 12y ago
    In a great many circumstances (i.e. not testifying in court), lying is not illegal. If you're lying to a casino, I don't think it's even immoral.
  - toomuchtodo 12y ago
    There is a large valley between lying and fraud.
  - CaveTech 12y ago
    Being disingenuous is not a crime, in fact, it's incredibly common. No one should be compelled to reveal their true intentions, regardless of if they're in good faith or bad. Intentions are subjective, actions are not.
emingo 12y ago
Casinos are in the business of taking money. GOOD Gamblers are in the business of taking money. Casinos exploit ignorance, they are able to take money EVEN THOUGH people know they don't have an edge. GOOD Gamblers counter exploit that same edge. The Casino lost.

lrm242 12y ago

There is no moral high ground in gambling. The house has the edge, and has designed it to be so. Phil Ivey is a smart gambler and knew how to shift the odds into his favor without cheating. He requested specific things, such as a specific flavor of deck that came from the casino itself and a mandarin speaking dealer. The casino agreed to these requests because it wanted Phil to play. They could have said no. Phil Ivey's edge sorting hack is phenomenal. That the casino thinks they should be insulated from smart players is unfortunate but it is their prerogative to refuse play. However, it absolutely should NOT be possible to claw back winnings from players who were NOT cheating, only playing smartly.

mattzito 12y ago
...but he lied. If they had said, "Hey, why do you want this?" and he said, "I think I've got a system for beating baccarat", and they went ahead anyway, they're idiots. But they asked and he said that he was just superstitious, it was for luck. At that point he was being disingenuous. Was it legal? Probably, I'm not a lawyer. Was it ethical? I'm leaning towards no.
- CDRdude 12y ago
  In a great many circumstances (i.e. not testifying in court), lying is not illegal. If you're lying to a casino, I don't think it's even immoral.
- toomuchtodo 12y ago
  There is a large valley between lying and fraud.
- CaveTech 12y ago
  Being disingenuous is not a crime, in fact, it's incredibly common. No one should be compelled to reveal their true intentions, regardless of if they're in good faith or bad. Intentions are subjective, actions are not.

emingo 12y ago

Casinos are in the business of taking money. GOOD Gamblers are in the business of taking money. Casinos exploit ignorance, they are able to take money EVEN THOUGH people know they don't have an edge. GOOD Gamblers counter exploit that same edge. The Casino lost.