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Europe in particular but also states, cities and regions in the US are filled with these types of programs designed to promote startups. When I was younger I've

by pelle 17y ago

Europe in particular but also states, cities and regions in the US are filled with these types of programs designed to promote startups. When I was younger I've been in them both in Denmark and in England. I'll go out on a limb and say that they have not helped one successful startup, who wouldn't have made it on their own. The real benefit of these programs is that politicians get to say they are being proactive about helping startups. All we really need is less red tape and general meddling in what we do.

ryanwaggoner 17y ago
I'll go out on a limb and say that they have not helped one successful startup, who wouldn't have made it on their own. Out a limb is right...come on, this kind of statement has no place in an intelligent debate. It's not even anecdotal, just baseless speculation.
- pelle 17y ago
  I would say that I have plenty anecdotal evidence, but I prefer baseless speculation. Anecdotal evidence is that a small (probably less than 10) prolific European investors like the Skype founders, Fon's Martin Varzavski et al have done a fantastic job promoting entrepreneurship Europe wide. My baseless speculation is that they have probably done considerably more in the past 10 years than the last 20 years worth of EU and state sponsored 'enterprise programs' and my guess is for a fraction of the money spent on setting up all the 1000s of enterprise agencies, regional enterprise centers etc sprinkled throughout Europe. US state and local governments are also filled with these local business development agencies and startup one stop shops. I just haven't spent any time looking at them, so yes I can only speculate that all of them together have had less positive effect on the world than one Paul Graham. Of course since Obama unlike all the governments of Europe always surrounds himself with the smartest people in the world, this is sure to be different. This time government will finally come through for us and help us out.
  - ryanwaggoner 17y ago
    I don't disagree with your conclusions; I just think that arguing the case in the way that you are makes your point of view irrelevant.
  - fatdog789 17y ago
    I do disagree with what you say. US State and local governments are not filled with business development agencies or startup clinics. Those organizations which do exist are almost all privately run (with some minor government sponsorship). You may be thinking of the Chambers of Commerce, many of which do offer similar programs but which are not government affiliated.
  - JCThoughtscream 17y ago
    While I'm sure your point is valid, how much of it is tainted by the fact that mom-and-pop startups simply aren't the sort that gets sexy coverage? Exactly how many regionally-locked businesses were actually dependent on these government business aid programs for their initial creation? And how many of them continue to thrive? I rather suspect the tech industry may be somewhat self-absorbed in its own successes. Just because we managed to pull it off without government aid, for the most part, doesn't mean that our success stories are the norm. Besides, pushing a lawnmower through the red tape's quite a bit of help on its own.

by pelle 17y ago

ryanwaggoner 17y ago

I'll go out on a limb and say that they have not helped one successful startup, who wouldn't have made it on their own. Out a limb is right...come on, this kind of statement has no place in an intelligent debate. It's not even anecdotal, just baseless speculation.

pelle 17y ago
I would say that I have plenty anecdotal evidence, but I prefer baseless speculation. Anecdotal evidence is that a small (probably less than 10) prolific European investors like the Skype founders, Fon's Martin Varzavski et al have done a fantastic job promoting entrepreneurship Europe wide. My baseless speculation is that they have probably done considerably more in the past 10 years than the last 20 years worth of EU and state sponsored 'enterprise programs' and my guess is for a fraction of the money spent on setting up all the 1000s of enterprise agencies, regional enterprise centers etc sprinkled throughout Europe. US state and local governments are also filled with these local business development agencies and startup one stop shops. I just haven't spent any time looking at them, so yes I can only speculate that all of them together have had less positive effect on the world than one Paul Graham. Of course since Obama unlike all the governments of Europe always surrounds himself with the smartest people in the world, this is sure to be different. This time government will finally come through for us and help us out.
- ryanwaggoner 17y ago
  I don't disagree with your conclusions; I just think that arguing the case in the way that you are makes your point of view irrelevant.
- fatdog789 17y ago
  I do disagree with what you say. US State and local governments are not filled with business development agencies or startup clinics. Those organizations which do exist are almost all privately run (with some minor government sponsorship). You may be thinking of the Chambers of Commerce, many of which do offer similar programs but which are not government affiliated.
- JCThoughtscream 17y ago
  While I'm sure your point is valid, how much of it is tainted by the fact that mom-and-pop startups simply aren't the sort that gets sexy coverage? Exactly how many regionally-locked businesses were actually dependent on these government business aid programs for their initial creation? And how many of them continue to thrive? I rather suspect the tech industry may be somewhat self-absorbed in its own successes. Just because we managed to pull it off without government aid, for the most part, doesn't mean that our success stories are the norm. Besides, pushing a lawnmower through the red tape's quite a bit of help on its own.