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Once you know type classes, it opens the door to a lot of functional "design patterns" - functors, applicatives, monads... these are not strictly necessary, but

Once you know type classes, it opens the door to a lot of functional "design patterns" - functors, applicatives, monads... these are not strictly necessary, but they're fun to learn about. For a certain value of "fun", I guess. Generally I find in engineering that it's best not to add abstraction (or other forms of complexity) to a system unless there are strong, clear benefits to doing so. The more we learn about Scala, it's just not clear that it delivers those benefits (in proportion to the time investment it demands). It's not that I don't "dig" abstraction. It's just that I have an infinite list of things to learn about (some fun, some not so fun) in any given development environment. (In general, most of these are in the non-fun category: dealing with dependencies,build tools, and legacy quirks that can never be fixed). And another infinite list in my own problem domain -- you know, that thing I'm supposed to be, theoretically, directly working on (in the service of which all of these fancy software tools were supposed to be a means, not an end). Plenty of very real and juicy abstractions. More than I can ever hope to get to the bottom of, in fact. But don't get me wrong. If applicatives and such are your bag, then that's great. Maybe Scala is the right language for you, then.

deleted 12y ago
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pea 12y ago
I agree with you in terms of abstraction; I do believe Scala adds a lot to practical programming as well. I feel the community is tainted by a bunch of type-nerds trying to compile their Haskell, and don't care about writing simple, maintainable code. We use Scala because it is speedier to push features. I work much quicker in it, and we don't have to worry about a lot of the stuff we would in Java. That said, we don't use a bunch of the most complex features of the language (I am just talking simple pattern matching, map/flatmap/filter/unzip). So far, it's actually the most productive language we've used. Our dig is the community and things peripheral from the core language: documentation is generally awful (Play, SBT). Dependencies management is awful (SBT doesn't work). Libraries are overly complex (Dispatch). And compile times suck.
eropple 12y ago
I'm a pretty big Scala fan, but I think this post is spot on. A lot of the stuff that's fun is not terribly useful, and I see a lot of people in the Scala community going down that road. The most perfect codebase in the world doesn't mean much if it doesn't do anything. This is why, despite feeling real weird about it, I'm writing my current personal project in Rails rather than Play. It's one case where worse-is-better kind of benefits me--it forces me to focus on my problem, rather than on all the cool bright-shiny-objects that are not my problem. (There's also a discussion to be had about the Scala-should-be-Haskell crowd, who I think come from a good place but are led by some of the most overtly poisonous people I've ever had to deal with.)
nrinaudo 12y ago
As I said, they're not necessary and I don't think I've written useful code that explicitely used monads, for example - well, aside from for-comprehensions, but you could argue that it's not explicit. But they are fun in that, once you start understanding what the fuss is all about, they open your brain to new ways of thinking, which is always good - instead of learning how to be really really good with a hammer, I like to know about screwdrivers as well, for the odd case where that nail is kind of screwy. I do understand your point about an infinite amount of things to learn in a finite amount of time. What I personally do is focus my study of tedium (build tools, say) and domain-specific concepts for work-hours. These things are required for me to be good at my job, and it seems fair that I improve on them while doing that job. The other, more theoretical (type theory, functional abstractions, fun data structures...) or less directly applicable (odd languages, new concepts such as reactive programming or actors...) subjects I study on my own time, when I have it, when and if I feel like it. It means that, for example, it took me a solid year before I felt I had some degree of fluency in Scala, which was frustrating. On the plus side, I now have some degree of fluency in Scala.

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pea 12y ago

I agree with you in terms of abstraction; I do believe Scala adds a lot to practical programming as well. I feel the community is tainted by a bunch of type-nerds trying to compile their Haskell, and don't care about writing simple, maintainable code. We use Scala because it is speedier to push features. I work much quicker in it, and we don't have to worry about a lot of the stuff we would in Java. That said, we don't use a bunch of the most complex features of the language (I am just talking simple pattern matching, map/flatmap/filter/unzip). So far, it's actually the most productive language we've used. Our dig is the community and things peripheral from the core language: documentation is generally awful (Play, SBT). Dependencies management is awful (SBT doesn't work). Libraries are overly complex (Dispatch). And compile times suck.

eropple 12y ago

I'm a pretty big Scala fan, but I think this post is spot on. A lot of the stuff that's fun is not terribly useful, and I see a lot of people in the Scala community going down that road. The most perfect codebase in the world doesn't mean much if it doesn't do anything. This is why, despite feeling real weird about it, I'm writing my current personal project in Rails rather than Play. It's one case where worse-is-better kind of benefits me--it forces me to focus on my problem, rather than on all the cool bright-shiny-objects that are not my problem. (There's also a discussion to be had about the Scala-should-be-Haskell crowd, who I think come from a good place but are led by some of the most overtly poisonous people I've ever had to deal with.)

nrinaudo 12y ago

As I said, they're not necessary and I don't think I've written useful code that explicitely used monads, for example - well, aside from for-comprehensions, but you could argue that it's not explicit. But they are fun in that, once you start understanding what the fuss is all about, they open your brain to new ways of thinking, which is always good - instead of learning how to be really really good with a hammer, I like to know about screwdrivers as well, for the odd case where that nail is kind of screwy. I do understand your point about an infinite amount of things to learn in a finite amount of time. What I personally do is focus my study of tedium (build tools, say) and domain-specific concepts for work-hours. These things are required for me to be good at my job, and it seems fair that I improve on them while doing that job. The other, more theoretical (type theory, functional abstractions, fun data structures...) or less directly applicable (odd languages, new concepts such as reactive programming or actors...) subjects I study on my own time, when I have it, when and if I feel like it. It means that, for example, it took me a solid year before I felt I had some degree of fluency in Scala, which was frustrating. On the plus side, I now have some degree of fluency in Scala.