3 ms·

Hmm, let me try to make my point clearer. What's happening now is a competition in taking the most drugs while avoiding getting caught. The possibility of gett

by maggit 12y ago

Hmm, let me try to make my point clearer. What's happening now is a competition in taking the most drugs while avoiding getting caught. The possibility of getting caught limits what you can do. Isn't the idea here to remove this limitation, to open up for experimenting with more things? This is certainly a good way to find out how to manipulate human bodies with drugs, but it does seem to be at the (cynical) expense of the guinea pigs.

ekianjo 12y ago
> The possibility of getting caught limits what you can do. What I'm saying is that the possibility of getting caught is very remote to what you can already do nowadays. There's much more effort and investment done at improving the drugs and hiding them than efforts to detect and prevent the abuses. And the subjects are willingly taking drugs anyway, so we are all just being a bunch of hypocrites when we celebrate "clean" sports because everyone involved know that 99% of athletes are taking drugs heavily. It's like pro wrestling: it's all fake, but everyone pretends otherwise.
- davidw 12y ago
  When they started testing out EPO illicitly on cyclists in the early 90ies, a number of young men died of heart attacks in their sleep, because their blood got too thick. Having some rules and regulations doesn't mean no one dopes, but it does curb how much goes on, which likely is beneficial to everyone's health: not even the dopers can take all they would were there no rules.
  - ekianjo 12y ago
    There can be rules, but let's stop pretending no one takes drugs. It's just ridiculous to believe that any athlete is not doped at this stage, except for certain disciplines where muscular mass or stamina has no advantage whatsoever.
    - davidw 12y ago
      I think that's highly unfair, and defamatory towards those who do compete fairly. Like anything in life, there are some bad apples, some honest people, and some in the middle. The rules help keep the honest people honest and give them a fighting chance.
      - ekianjo 12y ago
        Yeah, life is unfair, that's big news. Many athletes who retire and move away from the competition have revealed over the years what's happening behind the scene. Unless you consider everything they say is BS, it's really a small minority who is not taking any drug.
        davidw 12y ago
        The ones who have doped obviously want to justify their actions by saying "everyone else is doing it too!" So yeah, to some degree what they are saying is BS, which is kind of what you'd expect from cheaters. At some periods in time in some sports, it's probably less BS, because many of them were doing it. It's a long and complex discussion, without, clearly, much chance of getting accurate data. But there are guys out there competing clean.
        ekianjo 12y ago
        > The ones who have doped obviously want to justify their actions by saying "everyone else is doing it too!" There's a non negligible chance they are telling the truth, too. What's the point of saying that everyone does it instead of continuing to pretend the said sport is clean? This is rather a behavior indicating they realized something was wrong. And I'm not really convinced that, in cycling, for example, it's realistic to have cyclists run through hundreds of kilometers of mountains day after day and still being as fresh as ever. But hey, believe what you want.
        davidw 12y ago
        I don't doubt they're mostly telling the truth about themselves, but beyond that? It's more difficult to say. > And I'm not really convinced that, in cycling, for example, it's realistic to have cyclists run through hundreds of kilometers of mountains day after day and still being as fresh as ever. But hey, believe what you want. Ah, "it's tough, so it can't be true!". Those guys are the best at the world at what they do, and the ones they show on TV, are of course in the lead, so by default the ones in good shape. If you go see a bicycle race in person, you also get to see the ones lagging behind, some of whom are suffering a great deal. Truth be told, so are the ones in the lead, they're just going faster. It's really hard to know exactly what's going on, but my whole point is that there are at least a few guys who compete clean. Saying they are all doping is extremely demeaning to those who do compete clean.
  - head_stomp 12y ago
    Have you considered that those rules and regulations will cause people to optimize PEDs for undetectablility rather than effectiveness leading to people taking even more dangerous drugs than if they were legal? You see a similar thing with recreational drugs where people can't get a hold of or can't risk a failed drug test for relatively harmless illegal drugs so they use much more harmful legal substances. Look at Pride Fighting Championships(basically japanese UFC) which was around for 10 years without any doping tests. Where were all the problems we're supposed to be afraid of? Or hell, look at pro wrestling. The fear mongering over PEDs is absurd.
- scott_s 12y ago
  Athletes who know they will be tested who are on PEDs will often try to down-cycle before being tested. If PEDs are allowed, no such down-cycling would occur. This is maggit's point: even if people are still on PEDs with restrictions, they are more likely to be on even more PEDs with no restrictions. It's like the speed limit. Just about everyone goes 10 - 15 mph over the posted limit as a matter of course. One reason some people don't go faster is the threat of getting caught, and the resulting consequences. (And one reason some others don't go faster is they don't feel safe at faster speeds.) But if we removed the posted speed limits, it's likely people would go even faster. And for the record, I don't think the possibility of getting caught is remote. In professional MMA, fighters are getting caught every month.
gajomi 12y ago
>This is certainly a good way to find out how to manipulate human bodies with drugs, but it does seem to be at the (cynical) expense of the guinea pigs From the athletes perspective the "drugs" aspect is totally incidental. There are plenty of sports where people and up pushing there bodies to extreme and dangerous limits without drugs. The athletes always have to end up finding a balance in risk, and the need to find this balance wouldn't be abandoned with the introduction of a "drugs OK" domain, as far as I can tell.
- scott_s 12y ago
  The need to find the balance would remain, but it would change what is being balanced.

by maggit 12y ago

ekianjo 12y ago

> The possibility of getting caught limits what you can do. What I'm saying is that the possibility of getting caught is very remote to what you can already do nowadays. There's much more effort and investment done at improving the drugs and hiding them than efforts to detect and prevent the abuses. And the subjects are willingly taking drugs anyway, so we are all just being a bunch of hypocrites when we celebrate "clean" sports because everyone involved know that 99% of athletes are taking drugs heavily. It's like pro wrestling: it's all fake, but everyone pretends otherwise.

davidw 12y ago
When they started testing out EPO illicitly on cyclists in the early 90ies, a number of young men died of heart attacks in their sleep, because their blood got too thick. Having some rules and regulations doesn't mean no one dopes, but it does curb how much goes on, which likely is beneficial to everyone's health: not even the dopers can take all they would were there no rules.
- ekianjo 12y ago
  There can be rules, but let's stop pretending no one takes drugs. It's just ridiculous to believe that any athlete is not doped at this stage, except for certain disciplines where muscular mass or stamina has no advantage whatsoever.
  - davidw 12y ago
    I think that's highly unfair, and defamatory towards those who do compete fairly. Like anything in life, there are some bad apples, some honest people, and some in the middle. The rules help keep the honest people honest and give them a fighting chance.
    - ekianjo 12y ago
      Yeah, life is unfair, that's big news. Many athletes who retire and move away from the competition have revealed over the years what's happening behind the scene. Unless you consider everything they say is BS, it's really a small minority who is not taking any drug.
      - davidw 12y ago
        The ones who have doped obviously want to justify their actions by saying "everyone else is doing it too!" So yeah, to some degree what they are saying is BS, which is kind of what you'd expect from cheaters. At some periods in time in some sports, it's probably less BS, because many of them were doing it. It's a long and complex discussion, without, clearly, much chance of getting accurate data. But there are guys out there competing clean.
        ekianjo 12y ago
        > The ones who have doped obviously want to justify their actions by saying "everyone else is doing it too!" There's a non negligible chance they are telling the truth, too. What's the point of saying that everyone does it instead of continuing to pretend the said sport is clean? This is rather a behavior indicating they realized something was wrong. And I'm not really convinced that, in cycling, for example, it's realistic to have cyclists run through hundreds of kilometers of mountains day after day and still being as fresh as ever. But hey, believe what you want.
        davidw 12y ago
        I don't doubt they're mostly telling the truth about themselves, but beyond that? It's more difficult to say. > And I'm not really convinced that, in cycling, for example, it's realistic to have cyclists run through hundreds of kilometers of mountains day after day and still being as fresh as ever. But hey, believe what you want. Ah, "it's tough, so it can't be true!". Those guys are the best at the world at what they do, and the ones they show on TV, are of course in the lead, so by default the ones in good shape. If you go see a bicycle race in person, you also get to see the ones lagging behind, some of whom are suffering a great deal. Truth be told, so are the ones in the lead, they're just going faster. It's really hard to know exactly what's going on, but my whole point is that there are at least a few guys who compete clean. Saying they are all doping is extremely demeaning to those who do compete clean.
- head_stomp 12y ago
  Have you considered that those rules and regulations will cause people to optimize PEDs for undetectablility rather than effectiveness leading to people taking even more dangerous drugs than if they were legal? You see a similar thing with recreational drugs where people can't get a hold of or can't risk a failed drug test for relatively harmless illegal drugs so they use much more harmful legal substances. Look at Pride Fighting Championships(basically japanese UFC) which was around for 10 years without any doping tests. Where were all the problems we're supposed to be afraid of? Or hell, look at pro wrestling. The fear mongering over PEDs is absurd.
scott_s 12y ago
Athletes who know they will be tested who are on PEDs will often try to down-cycle before being tested. If PEDs are allowed, no such down-cycling would occur. This is maggit's point: even if people are still on PEDs with restrictions, they are more likely to be on even more PEDs with no restrictions. It's like the speed limit. Just about everyone goes 10 - 15 mph over the posted limit as a matter of course. One reason some people don't go faster is the threat of getting caught, and the resulting consequences. (And one reason some others don't go faster is they don't feel safe at faster speeds.) But if we removed the posted speed limits, it's likely people would go even faster. And for the record, I don't think the possibility of getting caught is remote. In professional MMA, fighters are getting caught every month.

gajomi 12y ago

>This is certainly a good way to find out how to manipulate human bodies with drugs, but it does seem to be at the (cynical) expense of the guinea pigs From the athletes perspective the "drugs" aspect is totally incidental. There are plenty of sports where people and up pushing there bodies to extreme and dangerous limits without drugs. The athletes always have to end up finding a balance in risk, and the need to find this balance wouldn't be abandoned with the introduction of a "drugs OK" domain, as far as I can tell.

scott_s 12y ago
The need to find the balance would remain, but it would change what is being balanced.