4 ms·

I know there's a lot of "drugs aren't that dangerous" and "certain currently illegal drugs are entirely risk free" sentiment on this site, and there's probably

by maggit 12y ago

I know there's a lot of "drugs aren't that dangerous" and "certain currently illegal drugs are entirely risk free" sentiment on this site, and there's probably some truth to it. However, organizing world wide sanctioned competitions in who can take the most drugs (the most advanced, the most risky, the largest volume) is bound to lead to horrible results for most of the participants.

ekianjo 12y ago
> However, organizing world wide sanctioned competitions in who can take the most drugs (the most advanced, the most risky, the largest volume) is bound to lead to horrible results for most of the participants. It's already happening in most competitions, you just don't know about it. When there's money at stake, ways to improve your performance drastically and very little chance to get caught, you have the right conditions in place.
- maggit 12y ago
  Hmm, let me try to make my point clearer. What's happening now is a competition in taking the most drugs while avoiding getting caught. The possibility of getting caught limits what you can do. Isn't the idea here to remove this limitation, to open up for experimenting with more things? This is certainly a good way to find out how to manipulate human bodies with drugs, but it does seem to be at the (cynical) expense of the guinea pigs.
  - ekianjo 12y ago
    > The possibility of getting caught limits what you can do. What I'm saying is that the possibility of getting caught is very remote to what you can already do nowadays. There's much more effort and investment done at improving the drugs and hiding them than efforts to detect and prevent the abuses. And the subjects are willingly taking drugs anyway, so we are all just being a bunch of hypocrites when we celebrate "clean" sports because everyone involved know that 99% of athletes are taking drugs heavily. It's like pro wrestling: it's all fake, but everyone pretends otherwise.
    - davidw 12y ago
      When they started testing out EPO illicitly on cyclists in the early 90ies, a number of young men died of heart attacks in their sleep, because their blood got too thick. Having some rules and regulations doesn't mean no one dopes, but it does curb how much goes on, which likely is beneficial to everyone's health: not even the dopers can take all they would were there no rules.
      - ekianjo 12y ago
        There can be rules, but let's stop pretending no one takes drugs. It's just ridiculous to believe that any athlete is not doped at this stage, except for certain disciplines where muscular mass or stamina has no advantage whatsoever.
        davidw 12y ago
        I think that's highly unfair, and defamatory towards those who do compete fairly. Like anything in life, there are some bad apples, some honest people, and some in the middle. The rules help keep the honest people honest and give them a fighting chance.
        ekianjo 12y ago
        Yeah, life is unfair, that's big news. Many athletes who retire and move away from the competition have revealed over the years what's happening behind the scene. Unless you consider everything they say is BS, it's really a small minority who is not taking any drug.
        davidw 12y ago
        The ones who have doped obviously want to justify their actions by saying "everyone else is doing it too!" So yeah, to some degree what they are saying is BS, which is kind of what you'd expect from cheaters. At some periods in time in some sports, it's probably less BS, because many of them were doing it. It's a long and complex discussion, without, clearly, much chance of getting accurate data. But there are guys out there competing clean.
  - gajomi 12y ago
    >This is certainly a good way to find out how to manipulate human bodies with drugs, but it does seem to be at the (cynical) expense of the guinea pigs From the athletes perspective the "drugs" aspect is totally incidental. There are plenty of sports where people and up pushing there bodies to extreme and dangerous limits without drugs. The athletes always have to end up finding a balance in risk, and the need to find this balance wouldn't be abandoned with the introduction of a "drugs OK" domain, as far as I can tell.
    - scott_s 12y ago
      The need to find the balance would remain, but it would change what is being balanced.
x0x0 12y ago
And this is different than current practice how? Are you aware, for example, that in the nba you are subject to 4 drug tests per year? And there is no reason you can be given a fifth? So the very second you get that fourth test, hopefully well before the tail end of the season and the grueling after season, these ultra competitive athletes have free reign to do as much hgh and steroids as they can get in their bodies. And steroids will help you heal and deal with the effects on your body of competing at those levels. Low supplementation, particularly under a doctor's care, is probably all to the good. I'd bet most of this is already going on. An addendum: and we all know it. Look at the muscle Barry Bonds put on in an off-season in his 30s. Look at Kobe Bryant, going for surgeries (and what else) abroad, coming back from torn acls and a 3rd degree torn achilles, commonly a career-ending injury. At age 34 and the 14th highest minutes every played. Look at Ray Lewis and his fucking miraculous recovery from a torn triceps. Look at Adrian Peterson tearing his acl and mcl, then coming back within a year to break a 28 year old rushing record. What do all these guys (and there are dozens more examples) have in common? Incredibly rapid recovery from horrific injuries. Late in life jump in muscle. You pretty much have to have your head buried up your arse not to be aware of what's going on.
scott_s 12y ago
I don't consider it a sport (as the evaluation is not performance based), but professional bodybuilding is as you describe. Events are untested, unless specifically advertised as tested. The untested events include the most famous ones you've heard of.

by maggit 12y ago

ekianjo 12y ago

> However, organizing world wide sanctioned competitions in who can take the most drugs (the most advanced, the most risky, the largest volume) is bound to lead to horrible results for most of the participants. It's already happening in most competitions, you just don't know about it. When there's money at stake, ways to improve your performance drastically and very little chance to get caught, you have the right conditions in place.

maggit 12y ago
Hmm, let me try to make my point clearer. What's happening now is a competition in taking the most drugs while avoiding getting caught. The possibility of getting caught limits what you can do. Isn't the idea here to remove this limitation, to open up for experimenting with more things? This is certainly a good way to find out how to manipulate human bodies with drugs, but it does seem to be at the (cynical) expense of the guinea pigs.
- ekianjo 12y ago
  > The possibility of getting caught limits what you can do. What I'm saying is that the possibility of getting caught is very remote to what you can already do nowadays. There's much more effort and investment done at improving the drugs and hiding them than efforts to detect and prevent the abuses. And the subjects are willingly taking drugs anyway, so we are all just being a bunch of hypocrites when we celebrate "clean" sports because everyone involved know that 99% of athletes are taking drugs heavily. It's like pro wrestling: it's all fake, but everyone pretends otherwise.
  - davidw 12y ago
    When they started testing out EPO illicitly on cyclists in the early 90ies, a number of young men died of heart attacks in their sleep, because their blood got too thick. Having some rules and regulations doesn't mean no one dopes, but it does curb how much goes on, which likely is beneficial to everyone's health: not even the dopers can take all they would were there no rules.
    - ekianjo 12y ago
      There can be rules, but let's stop pretending no one takes drugs. It's just ridiculous to believe that any athlete is not doped at this stage, except for certain disciplines where muscular mass or stamina has no advantage whatsoever.
      - davidw 12y ago
        I think that's highly unfair, and defamatory towards those who do compete fairly. Like anything in life, there are some bad apples, some honest people, and some in the middle. The rules help keep the honest people honest and give them a fighting chance.
        ekianjo 12y ago
        Yeah, life is unfair, that's big news. Many athletes who retire and move away from the competition have revealed over the years what's happening behind the scene. Unless you consider everything they say is BS, it's really a small minority who is not taking any drug.
        davidw 12y ago
        The ones who have doped obviously want to justify their actions by saying "everyone else is doing it too!" So yeah, to some degree what they are saying is BS, which is kind of what you'd expect from cheaters. At some periods in time in some sports, it's probably less BS, because many of them were doing it. It's a long and complex discussion, without, clearly, much chance of getting accurate data. But there are guys out there competing clean.
- gajomi 12y ago
  >This is certainly a good way to find out how to manipulate human bodies with drugs, but it does seem to be at the (cynical) expense of the guinea pigs From the athletes perspective the "drugs" aspect is totally incidental. There are plenty of sports where people and up pushing there bodies to extreme and dangerous limits without drugs. The athletes always have to end up finding a balance in risk, and the need to find this balance wouldn't be abandoned with the introduction of a "drugs OK" domain, as far as I can tell.
  - scott_s 12y ago
    The need to find the balance would remain, but it would change what is being balanced.

x0x0 12y ago

And this is different than current practice how? Are you aware, for example, that in the nba you are subject to 4 drug tests per year? And there is no reason you can be given a fifth? So the very second you get that fourth test, hopefully well before the tail end of the season and the grueling after season, these ultra competitive athletes have free reign to do as much hgh and steroids as they can get in their bodies. And steroids will help you heal and deal with the effects on your body of competing at those levels. Low supplementation, particularly under a doctor's care, is probably all to the good. I'd bet most of this is already going on. An addendum: and we all know it. Look at the muscle Barry Bonds put on in an off-season in his 30s. Look at Kobe Bryant, going for surgeries (and what else) abroad, coming back from torn acls and a 3rd degree torn achilles, commonly a career-ending injury. At age 34 and the 14th highest minutes every played. Look at Ray Lewis and his fucking miraculous recovery from a torn triceps. Look at Adrian Peterson tearing his acl and mcl, then coming back within a year to break a 28 year old rushing record. What do all these guys (and there are dozens more examples) have in common? Incredibly rapid recovery from horrific injuries. Late in life jump in muscle. You pretty much have to have your head buried up your arse not to be aware of what's going on.

scott_s 12y ago

I don't consider it a sport (as the evaluation is not performance based), but professional bodybuilding is as you describe. Events are untested, unless specifically advertised as tested. The untested events include the most famous ones you've heard of.