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> The main reason I've always remembered this man is because he's one of the few Chinese people in China (that I'm aware of) who actually enjoys making for the

by taurath 12y ago

> The main reason I've always remembered this man is because he's one of the few Chinese people in China (that I'm aware of) who actually enjoys making for the sake of making, and not just as a livelihood. China has 1.35 billion people, and it seems incredibly unimaginative and frankly egotistic to think that you can make generalizations about overall Chinese culture and then just call it a day. The fact is that even "maker" culture in the US where its currently being celebrated (because it makes people money) is made up of a very small percentage of people working in North America - you would not meet nor have heard of a large group of people "making things for the sake of making" in China but it doesn't mean that they don't exist.

chaostheory 12y ago
> China has 1.35 billion people, and it seems incredibly unimaginative and frankly egotistic to think that you can make generalizations about overall Chinese culture Ok I'm open to being wrong. How about proving me wrong? What parts of my description of Chinese culture are wrong? For one thing it's a pessimistic society hence the photocopy culture (why take a crazy risk for something unknown and original when I can just use someone else's safe and proven ideas?) and lack of open source (why share when I don't immediately benefit while others will for free?). > The fact is that even "maker" culture in the US where its currently being celebrated (because it makes people money) is made up of a very small percentage of people working in North America I agree about the small and minority part, people here are mostly about consumption and that needs to change. However, I strongly disagree about the 'because it makes people money' part. You're confusing the West with China. On a whole, people in the maker culture do it for the love and not as a job or lucrative opportunity. Most of the things being made seem unwanted and not polished for the mass market. Have you looked at Make, Instructables, or any of the other maker communities. People share their plans and designs. People do it for fun. They also make stuff as a way of rebelling against set institutions and consumption. (Maybe this is another strike against Chinese culture? Overall they are used to obeying 'emperors', while our culture is used to a near constant state of rebellion against old norms.) Making money for the majority of this idea tribe is mostly an afterthought. This is way different in China. About the only thing I can think of in China's defense on this issue is that I'm guessing more people and a larger percentage of the population have the ability to make stuff as opposed to people over here which is probably due more to necessity than personal preference. EDIT: One last edit, there is one more thing that I can think of where people in China Make more due to love and pride and not mainly for money: things related to their space program.
- newhouseb 12y ago
  > the photocopy culture I used to spout this phrase (or ones like it) back when 校内／人人 used to look like a pixel-perfect clone of FB. But I think China is growing beyond this phase. There are small things (like the touch to talk in iMessage? WeChat/微信 has had that for ages) and bigger things like the emergence of drones - the FAA just recently allowed filming of TV shows but some of China's most popular shows are already filmed almost entirely from drones (i.e. 爸爸去那儿). I think as Westerners it's easy to see what's a clone (because it looks the same) and much harder to see what's not (for us without full fluency) because we can't recognize the innovative ideas everyone else in China may already take for granted.
  - chaostheory 12y ago
    I don't disagree with you concerning the exceptions here and there, since I'm talking about China as a whole. Hopefully one day the small exceptions become the overall norm instead.
- 1stop 12y ago
  This comment just reads as a passive-aggressive racist rant. Do you really think people in China do not share? Do you really think Chinese are 'used' to obeying 'emporers'? Is that because they did 100 years ago? Which emperor do they follow now? (if you answer is the CCP or Xijinping, how is that different to Congress/Obama?) Is buying a movie off iTunes for $10 more of a rebellion against institutions than p2p-streaming it over PPS? BYD - Innovative, non-copy cat company (A kind of chinese-mirror of Tesla). Tencent - Non-copy cat company, crazy amount of innovation and market penetration So the above invalidates pretty much every point you make about 'chinese culture' being the reason they have no maker community, because it clearly hasn't stopped them from doing all of the things you say they don't do in other areas.
  - mmorris 12y ago
    >> the CCP or Xijinping, how is that different to Congress/Obama? Not disagreeing with you that their is real innovation going on in China (I think there is), but I don't think this is a great example. The US Congress and President Obama are all elected officials, whereas Xi Jinping and the CCP are not. Electing your own leaders is a pretty big deal, thus the protests in Hong Kong.
crahrah 12y ago
It's because of comments like this that it's almost impossible to have a critical conversation about culture. The parent comment is describing a cultural trope that frames the way people behave in that part of the world. There is a lot of pressure to work towards making money. That doesn't mean 100% of people are necessarily following the priorities set out by their society but it does mean that it makes a maker culture much more difficult there. It's inherently counter-cultural.
rdtsc 12y ago
Ok as the gp pointed out. Where are the thousands of open source projects on Github written by Chinese? > China has 1.35 billion people, and it seems incredibly unimaginative and frankly egotistic Surely, by your own suggestion, there should be countless examples of open source projects driven from there. Otherwise, their point (even in its generalized form) still stands.
- v-yadli 12y ago
  You have to make them speak English first. I mean, for the majority of Chinese people, they don't care about your Github thing... Edit: I'd suggest you do some research on this: where's all the information hiding in the Chinese internet? - An interesting example is this: http://www.pudn.com/ http://www.pudn.com/ It works different. Yes you can download stuff for free there, but you have to upload your own stuff to gain credit. It's just that, things work quite different here in China... All the things you talk about, you have to think whether they stand, first.
  - chaostheory 12y ago
    > All the things you talk about, you have to think whether they stand, first. I'm pretty damn sure I know what I'm talking about. For one thing, I'm not blinded by pride. (Going on a tangent, I don't even understand why people seem offended, since this isn't about talent or skill that a lot of mainlanders possess, this is simply about their culture.) Pudn is a horrible example of Chinese 'open source' because it's not really Chinese open source. It's really just a Chinese search engine for open source projects of which a lot aren't even Chinese. 1. Like you said, you can't even download anything unless you upload something. Why is this important? Because you can't just build something for the sake of building something and sharing, it still has to be out of self interest and self gain. 2. A lot of the serious projects there aren't even projects that are hosted there. Most of them are just other non-Chinese people's projects that are really hosted on github, sourceforge, google code, or some other open source repo site like code plex (i.e. Pudn's users aren't even uploading their own work.) which makes the 'you have to upload something to download something' even more ridiculous. 3. Of the projects that are really hosted there, most of them just look like the result of small homework assignments. 4. It's not really a place for people to collaborate. It's more of file share and search where people find examples to help finish their upcoming trivial homework assignments. They upload their own completed homework assignments so they can download other people's homework. There's nothing special there. My point stands. Chinese open source is near non-existent, not because of talent; it's because of culture.
pavelrub 12y ago
> It seems incredibly unimaginative and frankly egotistic to think that you can make generalizations about overall Chinese culture Why? What does it mean "generalizations about overall Chinese culture"? Are you claiming that in China there is only a collection of small, unrelated cultures, and no shared core? The whole point of the concept of "culture" is to observe that such generalizations do exist, and they drive many common behaviors in societies. That's why sociology of culture (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sociology_of_culture http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sociology_of_culture) is a thing.
- 1stop 12y ago
  > Are you claiming that in China there is only a collection of small, unrelated cultures, and no shared core? Are you implying it isn't? I mean there are more than the Han chinese (ethnic culture), and even within that there is are quite varied cultures within the Han. Most people's "chinese generalisations" are generalising about upper-middle class Chinese from the Big 3 cities + Hong Kong. Because they are the majority that migrate. Shanghai-ese are not like Guangzhou-ese are not like Hong Kong-ese are not like Beijing-ese are not like Taiwanese. But they'd all call themselves Chinese. So yes you can make some fairly mundane observations: "They all use chopsticks", "They like eating rice", "They have an incredibly competitive education system", "They share a common grammar". But you could make similar observations about "Europe"... and I'm not sure your point still stands at that point :\
  - pavelrub 12y ago
    It's usually the case that large cultures can be divided into subcultures (same with ethnic groups). The question isn't whether this is the case, but whether they form a larger culture with shared values and beliefs, and what those beliefs and values are. This is why the words "only" and "no shared core" appear in the question you are replying to. Saying that such generalizations cannot be made or that they only lead only to "mundane observations" is demonstrably false. The only question is whether the specific observation discussed here is correct.
  - chaostheory 12y ago
    > there are more than the Han chinese (ethnic culture), and even within that there is are quite varied cultures within the Han. Most people's "chinese generalisations" are generalising about upper-middle class Chinese from the Big 3 cities + Hong Kong. Because they are the majority that migrate. There's not a huge, ginormous difference between the Han sub-cultures. I know because I'm descended from both a less populous Han subgroup as well as a larger one, and so are my friends and family by marriage. Usually when Chinese people speak of the 'differences', they are just referring to popular stereotypes. As for the other non-Han ethnic groups, they make up less than 9% of the population. Most of them also don't really consider themselves as Chinese or part of Chinese culture at large (since they aren't really integrated with it - nor are they treated as Chinese) like the Uyghur's which are closer to Turkish people, and the Tibetans and Koreans. In China's defense, this isn't much different from what happens in Japan.

by taurath 12y ago

chaostheory 12y ago

> China has 1.35 billion people, and it seems incredibly unimaginative and frankly egotistic to think that you can make generalizations about overall Chinese culture Ok I'm open to being wrong. How about proving me wrong? What parts of my description of Chinese culture are wrong? For one thing it's a pessimistic society hence the photocopy culture (why take a crazy risk for something unknown and original when I can just use someone else's safe and proven ideas?) and lack of open source (why share when I don't immediately benefit while others will for free?). > The fact is that even "maker" culture in the US where its currently being celebrated (because it makes people money) is made up of a very small percentage of people working in North America I agree about the small and minority part, people here are mostly about consumption and that needs to change. However, I strongly disagree about the 'because it makes people money' part. You're confusing the West with China. On a whole, people in the maker culture do it for the love and not as a job or lucrative opportunity. Most of the things being made seem unwanted and not polished for the mass market. Have you looked at Make, Instructables, or any of the other maker communities. People share their plans and designs. People do it for fun. They also make stuff as a way of rebelling against set institutions and consumption. (Maybe this is another strike against Chinese culture? Overall they are used to obeying 'emperors', while our culture is used to a near constant state of rebellion against old norms.) Making money for the majority of this idea tribe is mostly an afterthought. This is way different in China. About the only thing I can think of in China's defense on this issue is that I'm guessing more people and a larger percentage of the population have the ability to make stuff as opposed to people over here which is probably due more to necessity than personal preference. EDIT: One last edit, there is one more thing that I can think of where people in China Make more due to love and pride and not mainly for money: things related to their space program.

newhouseb 12y ago
> the photocopy culture I used to spout this phrase (or ones like it) back when 校内／人人 used to look like a pixel-perfect clone of FB. But I think China is growing beyond this phase. There are small things (like the touch to talk in iMessage? WeChat/微信 has had that for ages) and bigger things like the emergence of drones - the FAA just recently allowed filming of TV shows but some of China's most popular shows are already filmed almost entirely from drones (i.e. 爸爸去那儿). I think as Westerners it's easy to see what's a clone (because it looks the same) and much harder to see what's not (for us without full fluency) because we can't recognize the innovative ideas everyone else in China may already take for granted.
- chaostheory 12y ago
  I don't disagree with you concerning the exceptions here and there, since I'm talking about China as a whole. Hopefully one day the small exceptions become the overall norm instead.
1stop 12y ago
This comment just reads as a passive-aggressive racist rant. Do you really think people in China do not share? Do you really think Chinese are 'used' to obeying 'emporers'? Is that because they did 100 years ago? Which emperor do they follow now? (if you answer is the CCP or Xijinping, how is that different to Congress/Obama?) Is buying a movie off iTunes for $10 more of a rebellion against institutions than p2p-streaming it over PPS? BYD - Innovative, non-copy cat company (A kind of chinese-mirror of Tesla). Tencent - Non-copy cat company, crazy amount of innovation and market penetration So the above invalidates pretty much every point you make about 'chinese culture' being the reason they have no maker community, because it clearly hasn't stopped them from doing all of the things you say they don't do in other areas.
- mmorris 12y ago
  >> the CCP or Xijinping, how is that different to Congress/Obama? Not disagreeing with you that their is real innovation going on in China (I think there is), but I don't think this is a great example. The US Congress and President Obama are all elected officials, whereas Xi Jinping and the CCP are not. Electing your own leaders is a pretty big deal, thus the protests in Hong Kong.

crahrah 12y ago

It's because of comments like this that it's almost impossible to have a critical conversation about culture. The parent comment is describing a cultural trope that frames the way people behave in that part of the world. There is a lot of pressure to work towards making money. That doesn't mean 100% of people are necessarily following the priorities set out by their society but it does mean that it makes a maker culture much more difficult there. It's inherently counter-cultural.

rdtsc 12y ago

Ok as the gp pointed out. Where are the thousands of open source projects on Github written by Chinese? > China has 1.35 billion people, and it seems incredibly unimaginative and frankly egotistic Surely, by your own suggestion, there should be countless examples of open source projects driven from there. Otherwise, their point (even in its generalized form) still stands.

v-yadli 12y ago
You have to make them speak English first. I mean, for the majority of Chinese people, they don't care about your Github thing... Edit: I'd suggest you do some research on this: where's all the information hiding in the Chinese internet? - An interesting example is this: http://www.pudn.com/ http://www.pudn.com/ It works different. Yes you can download stuff for free there, but you have to upload your own stuff to gain credit. It's just that, things work quite different here in China... All the things you talk about, you have to think whether they stand, first.
- chaostheory 12y ago
  > All the things you talk about, you have to think whether they stand, first. I'm pretty damn sure I know what I'm talking about. For one thing, I'm not blinded by pride. (Going on a tangent, I don't even understand why people seem offended, since this isn't about talent or skill that a lot of mainlanders possess, this is simply about their culture.) Pudn is a horrible example of Chinese 'open source' because it's not really Chinese open source. It's really just a Chinese search engine for open source projects of which a lot aren't even Chinese. 1. Like you said, you can't even download anything unless you upload something. Why is this important? Because you can't just build something for the sake of building something and sharing, it still has to be out of self interest and self gain. 2. A lot of the serious projects there aren't even projects that are hosted there. Most of them are just other non-Chinese people's projects that are really hosted on github, sourceforge, google code, or some other open source repo site like code plex (i.e. Pudn's users aren't even uploading their own work.) which makes the 'you have to upload something to download something' even more ridiculous. 3. Of the projects that are really hosted there, most of them just look like the result of small homework assignments. 4. It's not really a place for people to collaborate. It's more of file share and search where people find examples to help finish their upcoming trivial homework assignments. They upload their own completed homework assignments so they can download other people's homework. There's nothing special there. My point stands. Chinese open source is near non-existent, not because of talent; it's because of culture.

pavelrub 12y ago

> It seems incredibly unimaginative and frankly egotistic to think that you can make generalizations about overall Chinese culture Why? What does it mean "generalizations about overall Chinese culture"? Are you claiming that in China there is only a collection of small, unrelated cultures, and no shared core? The whole point of the concept of "culture" is to observe that such generalizations do exist, and they drive many common behaviors in societies. That's why sociology of culture (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sociology_of_culture http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sociology_of_culture) is a thing.

1stop 12y ago
> Are you claiming that in China there is only a collection of small, unrelated cultures, and no shared core? Are you implying it isn't? I mean there are more than the Han chinese (ethnic culture), and even within that there is are quite varied cultures within the Han. Most people's "chinese generalisations" are generalising about upper-middle class Chinese from the Big 3 cities + Hong Kong. Because they are the majority that migrate. Shanghai-ese are not like Guangzhou-ese are not like Hong Kong-ese are not like Beijing-ese are not like Taiwanese. But they'd all call themselves Chinese. So yes you can make some fairly mundane observations: "They all use chopsticks", "They like eating rice", "They have an incredibly competitive education system", "They share a common grammar". But you could make similar observations about "Europe"... and I'm not sure your point still stands at that point :\
- pavelrub 12y ago
  It's usually the case that large cultures can be divided into subcultures (same with ethnic groups). The question isn't whether this is the case, but whether they form a larger culture with shared values and beliefs, and what those beliefs and values are. This is why the words "only" and "no shared core" appear in the question you are replying to. Saying that such generalizations cannot be made or that they only lead only to "mundane observations" is demonstrably false. The only question is whether the specific observation discussed here is correct.
- chaostheory 12y ago
  > there are more than the Han chinese (ethnic culture), and even within that there is are quite varied cultures within the Han. Most people's "chinese generalisations" are generalising about upper-middle class Chinese from the Big 3 cities + Hong Kong. Because they are the majority that migrate. There's not a huge, ginormous difference between the Han sub-cultures. I know because I'm descended from both a less populous Han subgroup as well as a larger one, and so are my friends and family by marriage. Usually when Chinese people speak of the 'differences', they are just referring to popular stereotypes. As for the other non-Han ethnic groups, they make up less than 9% of the population. Most of them also don't really consider themselves as Chinese or part of Chinese culture at large (since they aren't really integrated with it - nor are they treated as Chinese) like the Uyghur's which are closer to Turkish people, and the Tibetans and Koreans. In China's defense, this isn't much different from what happens in Japan.