4 ms·

Would you rather live, today, in Cuba or (the poster boy for malicious US intervention) Chile?

ahi 12y ago
If I was born tomorrow, I would definitely pick Cuba (infant mortality 5/1000) instead of Chile (8/1000). United States is 6/1000 by the way.
- argumentum 12y ago
  Wow, this is the definition of myopia.
  - jessaustin 12y ago
    If you don't like that measure, suggest another. It's not as though infant mortality is some minor thing that no one cares about.
    - argumentum 12y ago
      Respect for human rights? Political liberty? Quality of life? Social Mobility? Economic opportunity? Myopia means excessive focus on one aspect at the neglect of the whole picture. I would consider many things in deciding where to live. Each person has different priorities, but for me the most important measure is liberty (political, economic and social). Chile is one of the freest countries in the world (usually in the top 10 of such rankings) and Cuba is usually amongst the bottom 10.
      - bildung 12y ago
        Chile is one of the freest countries in the world (usually in the top 10 of such rankings) and Cuba is usually amongst the bottom 10. I'd really be interested to see a link to a ranking placing Cuba at the bottom 10 countries in the world.
        argumentum 12y ago
        Here's one for economic freedom: http://www.heritage.org/index/ranking http://www.heritage.org/index/ranking Chile is #7 and Cuba is #177 (only North Korea is worse, at #178)
        bildung 12y ago
        Hehe, ok, yeah, with economic freedom it's no surprise (although with heritage.org I'd really look into the methodology...) . But freedom usually implies human rights, and economic freedom is just a means to exactly that end. A lesbian friend of mine, mother Cuban and father Spaniard, recently moved back to Cuba because of rising homophobic discrimination in Spain. She now lives with her SO in Cuba, they now both operate a café together. Her freedom (as implied by the UN Charta on human rights) certainly is higher in Cuba than in Spain.
        argumentum 12y ago
        I don't mean to question your friend's decision, and I don't know the exact situation, but this is just anecdotal evidence. Was it discrimination by the government or by fellow Spaniards in a private capacity? If it's the latter (which I'd guess), then it's not really a restriction on individual freedom. Nonetheless, I don't think this would conform to the experiences of the vast majority of Cubans, wrt individual liberty. I know several Cubans myself who fled the Castro regime. The UN charter on human rights also includes the right to freedom of expression, freedom of assembly, for political action etc. Take a scale of 1 to 10. Spain may be an 8/10 when it comes to equal treatment wrt sexual orientation. For the sake of argument, let's say Cuba is 10/10 in this measure. For reference, Saudi or Iran (where you can be executed for being gay) are 1/10. In most measures of freedom, Spain (and Chile) would be 8+ while Cuba would be 1-2/10. Here's another rating (considering political and civil liberty) where Chile/Spain come out perfect and Cuba is one of the worst: http://www.freedomhouse.org/report-types/freedom-world#.VDQwaZNdVy8 http://www.freedomhouse.org/report-types/freedom-world#.VDQw...
        bildung 12y ago
- joeguilmette 12y ago
  Having spent a good month living in Havana and 5 years in other places across the globe, I can tell you that Cuba is near the bottom of the "places I would choose to be born" list. I don't care what anyone says about their medical care - I've seen more amputees in that country than anywhere else on the planet. Crushing poverty, a brutal regime that interferes with daily life in large ways, absurdly low education even in the capital. I have a feeling that a lot of the numbers we see about Cuba come from the government and thus should not be trusted.
  - briandear 12y ago
    Thanks for this. Many people here have some romantic vision of Cuba that is influenced by well-designed Cuban operations to accomplish exactly what they're accomplishing: influencing gullible left-leaning Americans to support Cuba. I remember when I was at the University of Houston, there was a Cuban Friendship Committee that held Cuban 'cultural' events for students. Interestingly many of the students invited to those events were majors in areas of rather strategic interest: journalism students. Interesting even more so were the free and discounted trips to Cuba being covertly offered to select students. The leader of this group even assisted with obtaining Cuban travel permits from the Cuban government. Now just why would that "Friendship" committee be so friendly? I have first hand experience because I was both a journalism student, a Reuters contract photojournalist and the photo editor of the student newspaper; so I was invited to these Friendship events almost constantly. This was back in 1995-1997. There certainly wasn't any other 'student' organization offering free trips for 'cultural' exchange, except for Hillel, but that's another discussion altogether.. The point is that there is a powerful clandestine and covert effort by the Cuban government to manipulate American influencers to present the image of Cuba that is so frequently transmitted. It's exceptionally effective; just read some of the comments posted on this very thread. However the reality on the ground is much different than Michael Moore would have you believe.

ahi 12y ago

If I was born tomorrow, I would definitely pick Cuba (infant mortality 5/1000) instead of Chile (8/1000). United States is 6/1000 by the way.

argumentum 12y ago
Wow, this is the definition of myopia.
- jessaustin 12y ago
  If you don't like that measure, suggest another. It's not as though infant mortality is some minor thing that no one cares about.
  - argumentum 12y ago
    Respect for human rights? Political liberty? Quality of life? Social Mobility? Economic opportunity? Myopia means excessive focus on one aspect at the neglect of the whole picture. I would consider many things in deciding where to live. Each person has different priorities, but for me the most important measure is liberty (political, economic and social). Chile is one of the freest countries in the world (usually in the top 10 of such rankings) and Cuba is usually amongst the bottom 10.
    - bildung 12y ago
      Chile is one of the freest countries in the world (usually in the top 10 of such rankings) and Cuba is usually amongst the bottom 10. I'd really be interested to see a link to a ranking placing Cuba at the bottom 10 countries in the world.
      - argumentum 12y ago
        Here's one for economic freedom: http://www.heritage.org/index/ranking http://www.heritage.org/index/ranking Chile is #7 and Cuba is #177 (only North Korea is worse, at #178)
        bildung 12y ago
        Hehe, ok, yeah, with economic freedom it's no surprise (although with heritage.org I'd really look into the methodology...) . But freedom usually implies human rights, and economic freedom is just a means to exactly that end. A lesbian friend of mine, mother Cuban and father Spaniard, recently moved back to Cuba because of rising homophobic discrimination in Spain. She now lives with her SO in Cuba, they now both operate a café together. Her freedom (as implied by the UN Charta on human rights) certainly is higher in Cuba than in Spain.
        argumentum 12y ago
        I don't mean to question your friend's decision, and I don't know the exact situation, but this is just anecdotal evidence. Was it discrimination by the government or by fellow Spaniards in a private capacity? If it's the latter (which I'd guess), then it's not really a restriction on individual freedom. Nonetheless, I don't think this would conform to the experiences of the vast majority of Cubans, wrt individual liberty. I know several Cubans myself who fled the Castro regime. The UN charter on human rights also includes the right to freedom of expression, freedom of assembly, for political action etc. Take a scale of 1 to 10. Spain may be an 8/10 when it comes to equal treatment wrt sexual orientation. For the sake of argument, let's say Cuba is 10/10 in this measure. For reference, Saudi or Iran (where you can be executed for being gay) are 1/10. In most measures of freedom, Spain (and Chile) would be 8+ while Cuba would be 1-2/10. Here's another rating (considering political and civil liberty) where Chile/Spain come out perfect and Cuba is one of the worst: http://www.freedomhouse.org/report-types/freedom-world#.VDQwaZNdVy8 http://www.freedomhouse.org/report-types/freedom-world#.VDQw...
        bildung 12y ago
joeguilmette 12y ago
Having spent a good month living in Havana and 5 years in other places across the globe, I can tell you that Cuba is near the bottom of the "places I would choose to be born" list. I don't care what anyone says about their medical care - I've seen more amputees in that country than anywhere else on the planet. Crushing poverty, a brutal regime that interferes with daily life in large ways, absurdly low education even in the capital. I have a feeling that a lot of the numbers we see about Cuba come from the government and thus should not be trusted.
- briandear 12y ago
  Thanks for this. Many people here have some romantic vision of Cuba that is influenced by well-designed Cuban operations to accomplish exactly what they're accomplishing: influencing gullible left-leaning Americans to support Cuba. I remember when I was at the University of Houston, there was a Cuban Friendship Committee that held Cuban 'cultural' events for students. Interestingly many of the students invited to those events were majors in areas of rather strategic interest: journalism students. Interesting even more so were the free and discounted trips to Cuba being covertly offered to select students. The leader of this group even assisted with obtaining Cuban travel permits from the Cuban government. Now just why would that "Friendship" committee be so friendly? I have first hand experience because I was both a journalism student, a Reuters contract photojournalist and the photo editor of the student newspaper; so I was invited to these Friendship events almost constantly. This was back in 1995-1997. There certainly wasn't any other 'student' organization offering free trips for 'cultural' exchange, except for Hillel, but that's another discussion altogether.. The point is that there is a powerful clandestine and covert effort by the Cuban government to manipulate American influencers to present the image of Cuba that is so frequently transmitted. It's exceptionally effective; just read some of the comments posted on this very thread. However the reality on the ground is much different than Michael Moore would have you believe.