4 ms·

I see a lot of that across Europe. I've been dying to do a road trip out that way (from the UK) but it's difficult with three children. Everyone I've met and s

I see a lot of that across Europe. I've been dying to do a road trip out that way (from the UK) but it's difficult with three children. Everyone I've met and spoken to out there has been through some serious shit right up until the late 1990s from wars to genocides. They really are forward thinking because looking back hurts badly. It might sound cheesy but I have a lot of hope for Europe and most of it comes from the East. At the same time I'm disgusted at how the media and general population treats our fellow Europeans.

vidarh 12y ago
> Everyone I've met and spoken to out there has been through some serious shit right up until the late 1990s from wars to genocides. "Out there"? I'm going to presume that the wars and genocide you're talking about was the former Yugoslavia, as not many places fit the bill unless you go looking much further away, in which case Estonia is almost as far from there as it is from the UK (driving distance can go either way depending on route). And still 1700km from Estonia to Donetsk, Ukraine if you want to include that conflict...
- sudowhodoido 12y ago
  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Singing_Revolution http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Singing_Revolution ?
- jacquesm 12y ago
  Estonia suffered mass deportations under the Soviet regime, this has never been appropriately dealt with in terms of compensation or criminal trials and the Estonian people are still extremely conscious of this even though the actual crimes committed against Estonians are now long ago. So I highly doubt Yugoslavia was the intended subject there.
jacquesm 12y ago
> It might sound cheesy but I have a lot of hope for Europe and most of it comes from the East. I very much agree with you. The East of Europe has very recent memory of how not to run countries, the West is already forgetting those lessons and repeating past mistakes. For now the West is still ahead economically, but I suspect that this will not last indefinitely. You can pretty much draw a line through 'Helmstedt' (the site of the old autobahn border crossing between 'East' and 'West' Germany) and use that as the pivot point. On the left of that pivot the swing is steadily downwards whereas on the east of that up to the Russian border there is slow but fairly steady progress. Of course the map is not the territory and you'd have to account for the situations further North and South with different pivot points but on the whole this seems to be how it is today.
- tripzilch 12y ago
  I agree with this in general, especially about forgetting lessons and repeating past mistakes. Privacy-awareness in East-European countries is impressive, it's on the top of their minds because they know what can happen if you let it run loose. On the other hand, I read a few years ago (and I don't have much reason to suspect much has changed though I'd love to hear I'm wrong) about a village in East-Germany that was entirely in control by neo-nazis. That was scary to find out such things are actually going on today (this was before I heard about Greece's Golden Dawn and how they run refugee camps). When travelling, I was warned about the are that people that looked too "foreign" might have a bad time (I suppose when coloured or Arab, me and my travel companion were both very white, Dutch and half-German). Maybe it's just an anecdote or some small isolated issues blown out of proportion, but this is what also plays in the back of my mind whenever I consider they're learning from past mistakes. Either way, no throwing babies out with the bathwater, we can both support and learn from their historical awareness, as well as be vigilant about rising intolerances.
- sudowhodoido 12y ago
  Thanks for the reply. Interesting theory and one I agree with entirely based on who I know. I'd love to move out of the UK and will do this if we ever drop out of the EU. Perhaps East of that line.
- smcl 12y ago
  I'm curious if you deliberately included Austria east of your pivot point or if this is by accident. I hear all sorts of conflicting stuff about the place - high standard\quality of living but not-so exciting career\growth prospects, high prices but generous social\welfare programs - so I've no idea what to think of Austria long-term. I've been to Vienna a few times as I live a couple of hours away, and it's lovely but a few daytrips is obviously not going to reveal a great deal.
  - jacquesm 12y ago
    Austria is very much a mixed bag. Quality of life in the cities and economy are fine, the country has a terrible image when it comes to dealing with other social issues (immigrants, right wing political parties and so on).
netcan 12y ago
I am happy to hear you say this. I live in Ireland and I'm very pro-EU. Not in the sense that I like or dislike policies or structures, but in the sense of the EU's real and original goals: Solidarity. Open Borders. Peace. It makes me sick to see that countries have sent the EU Parliament their nationalists, populists and outright fascists. Solidarity. Open Borders. Peace. It's worth making it a generational goal. A thousand years of solidarity, open borders & peace. I have hope for, with and from our brother east of here (which for me is pretty much all Europe :) .
saraid216 12y ago
> At the same time I'm disgusted at how the media and general population treats our fellow Europeans. I'm having trouble interpreting this sentence since I have no context. Does "the media and general population" refer to Western Europeans or does it refer to Estonians?
- kbart 12y ago
  In Western Europe, Eastern Europeans (Estonia included) are usually low-paid immigrants and portrayed as a cheap workforce, criminals, social burden etc. generally, a lower human beings.

vidarh 12y ago

> Everyone I've met and spoken to out there has been through some serious shit right up until the late 1990s from wars to genocides. "Out there"? I'm going to presume that the wars and genocide you're talking about was the former Yugoslavia, as not many places fit the bill unless you go looking much further away, in which case Estonia is almost as far from there as it is from the UK (driving distance can go either way depending on route). And still 1700km from Estonia to Donetsk, Ukraine if you want to include that conflict...

sudowhodoido 12y ago
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Singing_Revolution http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Singing_Revolution ?
jacquesm 12y ago
Estonia suffered mass deportations under the Soviet regime, this has never been appropriately dealt with in terms of compensation or criminal trials and the Estonian people are still extremely conscious of this even though the actual crimes committed against Estonians are now long ago. So I highly doubt Yugoslavia was the intended subject there.

jacquesm 12y ago

> It might sound cheesy but I have a lot of hope for Europe and most of it comes from the East. I very much agree with you. The East of Europe has very recent memory of how not to run countries, the West is already forgetting those lessons and repeating past mistakes. For now the West is still ahead economically, but I suspect that this will not last indefinitely. You can pretty much draw a line through 'Helmstedt' (the site of the old autobahn border crossing between 'East' and 'West' Germany) and use that as the pivot point. On the left of that pivot the swing is steadily downwards whereas on the east of that up to the Russian border there is slow but fairly steady progress. Of course the map is not the territory and you'd have to account for the situations further North and South with different pivot points but on the whole this seems to be how it is today.

tripzilch 12y ago
I agree with this in general, especially about forgetting lessons and repeating past mistakes. Privacy-awareness in East-European countries is impressive, it's on the top of their minds because they know what can happen if you let it run loose. On the other hand, I read a few years ago (and I don't have much reason to suspect much has changed though I'd love to hear I'm wrong) about a village in East-Germany that was entirely in control by neo-nazis. That was scary to find out such things are actually going on today (this was before I heard about Greece's Golden Dawn and how they run refugee camps). When travelling, I was warned about the are that people that looked too "foreign" might have a bad time (I suppose when coloured or Arab, me and my travel companion were both very white, Dutch and half-German). Maybe it's just an anecdote or some small isolated issues blown out of proportion, but this is what also plays in the back of my mind whenever I consider they're learning from past mistakes. Either way, no throwing babies out with the bathwater, we can both support and learn from their historical awareness, as well as be vigilant about rising intolerances.
sudowhodoido 12y ago
Thanks for the reply. Interesting theory and one I agree with entirely based on who I know. I'd love to move out of the UK and will do this if we ever drop out of the EU. Perhaps East of that line.
smcl 12y ago
I'm curious if you deliberately included Austria east of your pivot point or if this is by accident. I hear all sorts of conflicting stuff about the place - high standard\quality of living but not-so exciting career\growth prospects, high prices but generous social\welfare programs - so I've no idea what to think of Austria long-term. I've been to Vienna a few times as I live a couple of hours away, and it's lovely but a few daytrips is obviously not going to reveal a great deal.
- jacquesm 12y ago
  Austria is very much a mixed bag. Quality of life in the cities and economy are fine, the country has a terrible image when it comes to dealing with other social issues (immigrants, right wing political parties and so on).

netcan 12y ago

I am happy to hear you say this. I live in Ireland and I'm very pro-EU. Not in the sense that I like or dislike policies or structures, but in the sense of the EU's real and original goals: Solidarity. Open Borders. Peace. It makes me sick to see that countries have sent the EU Parliament their nationalists, populists and outright fascists. Solidarity. Open Borders. Peace. It's worth making it a generational goal. A thousand years of solidarity, open borders & peace. I have hope for, with and from our brother east of here (which for me is pretty much all Europe :) .

saraid216 12y ago

> At the same time I'm disgusted at how the media and general population treats our fellow Europeans. I'm having trouble interpreting this sentence since I have no context. Does "the media and general population" refer to Western Europeans or does it refer to Estonians?

kbart 12y ago
In Western Europe, Eastern Europeans (Estonia included) are usually low-paid immigrants and portrayed as a cheap workforce, criminals, social burden etc. generally, a lower human beings.